tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post1309476329667044146..comments2023-07-26T05:23:42.133-05:00Comments on Pearls & Lodestones: Government Education's Chicken Come HomeUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-79700709010051521592008-08-16T16:44:00.000-05:002008-08-16T16:44:00.000-05:00Dan,Without bragging about my extensive post-grad ...Dan,<BR/><BR/>Without bragging about my extensive post-grad work in education, it doesn't take a doctorate to understand that our standing vs the rest of the world shows a problem with our educational system. If we aren't first, second or third, we're stroking ourselves to say otherwise.Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-11208551460164736132008-08-16T16:32:00.000-05:002008-08-16T16:32:00.000-05:00Many thanks, Bubba for the defense. Keep in mind ...Many thanks, Bubba for the defense. Keep in mind that it is Dan chastizing me for my reasoning. Pretty funny, no?Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-36113772099781174912008-08-14T08:12:00.000-05:002008-08-14T08:12:00.000-05:00Dan:First, about poverty, Thomas Sowell makes a co...Dan:<BR/><BR/>First, about poverty, Thomas Sowell makes a couple very good points in an article that was reprinted <A HREF="http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell010500.asp" REL="nofollow">here,</A> first that the free market has done more to raise the poor's standard of living than all government programs combined, and second that the poverty line is constantly moving.<BR/><BR/><I>"As lateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-45352374889851395092008-08-14T05:51:00.001-05:002008-08-14T05:51:00.001-05:00I agree with Eric on this one, ER. We all have a r...I agree with Eric on this one, ER. We all have a right to an opinion on the future of all of our children.<BR/><BR/>It's just that it's not smart to base an opinion on an entire education system based on a few anonymous examples found randomly on the internets.<BR/><BR/>And while Marshall is certainly welcome to his hunch that "Public education IS failing if ANY AP students are as stupid as Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-51847408569086751172008-08-14T05:51:00.000-05:002008-08-14T05:51:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-3988917411206663752008-08-14T01:52:00.000-05:002008-08-14T01:52:00.000-05:00Indeed. You pay taxes, you have a stake in it. B...Indeed. You pay taxes, you have a stake in it. Besides, the quality of our youth affects society as a whole. A better eduacted youth is a benefit to all. A lesser educated youth is a burden to all.<BR/><BR/>Public education IS failing if we don't rank at minimum, top three in the world. There's no excuse for that. Public education IS failing if ANY AP students are as stupid as indicated by Marshal Arthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01054268632726520871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-49406332637815749442008-08-13T22:46:00.000-05:002008-08-13T22:46:00.000-05:00I do have a personal stake in it. Taxes... the mon...I do have a personal stake in it. Taxes... the money they take from my paycheck twice a month before I ever see it.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-44893675647551223962008-08-13T21:01:00.000-05:002008-08-13T21:01:00.000-05:00Re, "By that measure of logic all of you who haven...Re, "By that measure of logic all of you who haven't served in the military should keep yer yaps shut on issues like Iraq and Afghanistan. But since you won't in that respect, I won't in this."<BR/><BR/>Actually, I have never said a damn thing about how the military, as an institution, ahould operate internally. Ever. And that's what you're alluding to with this post, only as regards education.<Erudite Redneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830721195868387265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-91178846941991692362008-08-13T10:26:00.000-05:002008-08-13T10:26:00.000-05:00A more relevant question is, if education improved...<I>A more relevant question is, if education improved, how much of it can be attributed to public funding?</I><BR/><BR/>Bubba, let me praise you: These are GREAT questions and entirely reasonable to ask, to research, to debate.<BR/><BR/>All I am objecting to is the notion - and it is done way too often - of pointing to an anonymous online website with some examples supposedly of a few students (Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-24207160221268683722008-08-13T08:22:00.000-05:002008-08-13T08:22:00.000-05:00Dan:Do you suppose people were BETTER educated bef...Dan:<BR/><BR/><I>Do you suppose people were BETTER educated before public education?</I><BR/><BR/>I'm not sure this question is the most germane. Even if one believes that people weren't better educated before public education, it doesn't logically follow that the improvement resulted from public education. That conclusion may be an instance of confusing correlation and causality: <A HREF="Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-66400671327367817972008-08-12T22:11:00.000-05:002008-08-12T22:11:00.000-05:00That is an ignorant position upon which to stand, ...That is an ignorant position upon which to stand, ER. By that measure of logic all of you who haven't served in the military should keep yer yaps shut on issues like Iraq and Afghanistan. But since you won't in that respect, I won't in this.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for your input, but it's ignorant, hypocritical; and it adds nothing of substance to the discussion.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-62514182989006680052008-08-12T20:12:00.000-05:002008-08-12T20:12:00.000-05:00Yawn. Haven't read the comments. But good Lord, EL...Yawn. Haven't read the comments. But good Lord, EL. 1. What is it you expect from a free country, which means that parents are as free to rause their children s god-awful ignorant as they are; and, 2., what is it you do to help your own children do to prepare; and 3., if you have no children, then, well, you're on the sideline; keep cheering and hollering as loud as you want, but those of uis Erudite Redneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830721195868387265noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-39151406966365917362008-08-12T13:10:00.000-05:002008-08-12T13:10:00.000-05:00As stated, I'm entirely favor of having high stand...As stated, I'm entirely favor of having high standards, like they do in the schools where my kids have gone.<BR/><BR/>The schools I attended.<BR/><BR/>So, we're not disagreeing there. I'm glad to see you're not thinking we ought to get rid of public schools. Just have higher standards. <BR/><BR/>After all, if we got rid of schools, we'd be back to where we were before public schools were widely Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-67493449473241512792008-08-12T12:59:00.000-05:002008-08-12T12:59:00.000-05:00So, since the topic of this post is the quality of...So, since the topic of this post is the quality of public education, my question is: Do you suppose people were BETTER educated before public education?Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-44668001088949658542008-08-12T12:43:00.000-05:002008-08-12T12:43:00.000-05:00But to answer Ben's questions..."What does it mean...But to answer Ben's questions...<BR/><BR/>"What does it mean?" It means government funded education is a failure if <I>advanced placement</I> students are this ignorant.<BR/><BR/>"Should we abandon the idea of public education...?" No. But we should abandon the Unions stranglehold on the content and quality of education. Let TEACHERS be graded by the quality of their instruction. Allow parents <IErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-40969868525054493562008-08-12T12:17:00.000-05:002008-08-12T12:17:00.000-05:00This blog isn't in business to specifically answer...This blog isn't in business to specifically answer your or Ben's questions. Didn't I negate the need for an answer when I scolded you for being off-topic... what did I say? Obtuse, vacuous?<BR/><BR/><I>"It sounds more like the sort of strawman position that people like to create to have an easy "enemy" to attack."</I><BR/><BR/>Good grief! Dan... er, Pot! Meet Kettle! What hypocrisy!<BR/><BR/><I>"Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-6718541603217933402008-08-12T12:15:00.000-05:002008-08-12T12:15:00.000-05:00Dan, the use of strawman tactics is an interesting...Dan, the use of strawman tactics is an interesting accusation coming from you, since, in our <A HREF="http://pearlsandlodestones.blogspot.com/2008/08/addressing-dans-incredibly-optimistic.html" REL="nofollow">last</A> conversation, you accused libertarians of being isolationists and accused neoconservatives of the belief that might makes right. Here, you dismiss Marshall's point with a glib Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-54113420498883522312008-08-12T11:46:00.000-05:002008-08-12T11:46:00.000-05:00I don't want to belabor off-topic points, but real...I don't want to belabor off-topic points, but really, honestly, Bubba, you need to quit guessing what I'm thinking or what my opinions are. You are consistently wrong on nearly every thing you say about what I believe. And I know that for sure because, well, it's ME that believes it.<BR/><BR/>Peace, y'all.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-36683955347997478832008-08-12T11:41:00.000-05:002008-08-12T11:41:00.000-05:00Bubba noted:This is the position of the intransige...Bubba noted:<BR/><BR/><I>This is the position of the intransigent, radical, ideological Progressive, who treats revolution as a religion and who can't discern that not all change is progress, that not every step taken is a step forward.</I><BR/><BR/>And it is also a position that very few actual people of whom I'm aware or have ever read or heard of anywhere in the real world. It's certainly not Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-37474221935298361712008-08-12T11:29:00.000-05:002008-08-12T11:29:00.000-05:00Aaaand, Ben's and my questions go unanswered.Thank...Aaaand, Ben's and my questions go unanswered.<BR/><BR/>Thank you very much for the conversation.Dan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-72765795323062677782008-08-12T11:03:00.000-05:002008-08-12T11:03:00.000-05:00Dan, much of the technological advances you take f...Dan, much of the technological advances you take for granted are the result of both the free market that you think we need to regulate intelligently and, more, the industrialization that you think we need to scale back dramatically. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the latter, you urge -- strongly, repeatedly, to the point of nausea -- that we should live simply, "within our means," and rely on sustainable, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-77949247440075108872008-08-12T10:34:00.000-05:002008-08-12T10:34:00.000-05:00Some students? This is AP students we're talking a...Some students? This is AP students we're talking about... <I>advanced placement</I> students. You're trying to deflect the issue, in a typically, Dan fashion, by making the discussion a moratorium on the evils of colonial education because they excluded blacks... I'm appalled at the apparent lack of substantive <I>government</I> education today. TODAY. All the colleges in the mid-eighteenth Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-21709442967899621162008-08-12T10:26:00.000-05:002008-08-12T10:26:00.000-05:00I'm sorry, but I honestly don't know what that ans...I'm sorry, but I honestly don't know what that answer has to do with our questions.<BR/><BR/>Are you in favor of standards of education? Me, too. I expect that my children have basic standards of education that they meet. And, God bless those public schools, my children ARE meeting those standards of education and going way beyond.<BR/><BR/>Our public school teachers all support high standards ofDan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-8671592621828425722008-08-12T10:23:00.000-05:002008-08-12T10:23:00.000-05:00Come on, Dan. You know better than that! Standards...Come on, Dan. You know better than that! Standards of Education!Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08874712703862427318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5120926083097843134.post-30761744658189582832008-08-12T10:12:00.000-05:002008-08-12T10:12:00.000-05:00Obtuse? Your post suggests that public education i...Obtuse? <BR/><BR/>Your post suggests that public education is sucky.<BR/><BR/>I asked a reasonable question: Do you suppose people were BETTER educated before public education?<BR/><BR/>Ben asked some legitimate questions. What is the point of your post? It seems to be that we ought not spend more money on public education because some students are doing poorly, and that because some students areDan Trabuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303597141397042669noreply@blogger.com