A strong wind has been blowing for much of the day carrying upon its ephemeral back the evidential smoke of wildfires more than fifty miles away; wood ash and creosote... more of the former, less of the latter. The moon, half awake and sinking fast toward the west is smeared by a sickly yellow pal; were it a full moon, you might call it baleful. But as it is, it is half-lidded and so high above it all it need not worry about breathing the slight sting of the winds poisonous soup carried out of conflagration and elemental transformation... Wildfire, we call it.
And yet that's true of everything: the moon is immune to all we do, to the ills of this world-- for now --while exerting over us an influence, beneficial and unrelenting, in a rhythmic tug of war we cannot win. We labor here, laugh here, build and destroy here, love and die here, make war [but not peace] here, and yet the moon itself is unaffected by our works, loves, wars, and deaths.
I used to view the world as something beautiful. I still do, but I should qualify this simple statement. I look at the sky, the earth, the trees, clear springs, and especially the pounding surfs of oceans and I see nothing that deserves destruction. Likewise I look at the animal kingdom and see the big red kangaroos doing what roos do. I see eagles, salmon, cicadas, lions upon the savannas of Africa, Elephants in the jungles of Thailand and I see nothing deserving of destruction.
But then I look at man. And what do I see? I see murder... from the very first. I see hatred, selfishness, apathy, and insipidness... I see ignorance and arrogance... and I see very little NOT worthy of destruction.
And I am being Generous.
Wildfires are burning close enough to my home that winds carry news of them, postcards from the front. Letters from soldiers who will never see another spring or another inch of growth, because conflagration has consumed them. And yet this could be a metaphor for America, as well as the world.
Ignorance will be the death of America. Ignorance and apathy will be the death of the world. Ignorance of God, and indifference toward learning His ways. Vasko Kohlmayer is correct in saying that those who war against God suffer madness. For it is madness to argue that partial-birth abortion [or ANY abortion for that matter] should be a constitutional right, especially while just across the street the very same are picketing prisons and decrying the death penalty. It is madness to look at a man and woman, see how they are uniquely made for each other, and conclude that homosexuality is a natural outflowing of God's perfect will in the lives of those who practice what is biologically inconvenient. It is madness to advance a law that criminalizes thought. It is madness to believe raising taxes will increase revenue especially in light of record breaking tax revenues spawned by tax decreases!
It is madness when female school teachers guilty of raping students get comparably lighter sentences than male teachers guilty of the same. It is madness that the medical profession is propagated upon the deceit and corruption of drug companies and government agencies. It is madness when doctors have to pay upwards of 150k a year just for malpractice insurance.
The Right is susceptible to madness, but the Left even more so. Just fifty years ago everyone was rightfully suspicious of Communists, and those with communist leanings and contacts. But today, actor Danny Glover thinks nothing of going to Venezuela to meet with Hugo Chavez to talk about a film deal. Jimmy Carter has cozied up to the man as well, as has Cindy Sheehan. Today, Socialism is a badge of honor among the liberal elite, despite the fact that Socialism and Communism have failed everywhere and every time it's been tried.
Hatred, Intolerance, Murder, Envy... all of it is madness, and all of it resides in the human heart, irrespective of race, nationality, creed or religion. Everyone born of woman is subject to all these and more. And yet no one wants to look at it. No one wants to look at the fires of war raging across the world.
Beheadings, kidnappings, mass murders-- even children are not immune.
We like to point our fingers at Hitler. But we, America, have the blood of 45 million babies on our hands. We like to castigate America for 400,000+ civilian deaths in Iraq, most of which were committed by Muslims, and yet the Soviet Union destroyed tens if not hundreds of millions of lives. And not just in Russia, but also China, Ukraine, Germany, Finland, Belarus, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia... to name just a few. And the American Left mysteriously finds it chic to push a socialistic agenda upon this nation?
Why should God bless America? We kill the unborn, sanction unholy unions between same-sex couples, we've stripped our schools of the Bible and prayer... What is there in America today that deserves blessing and not destruction?
It's true. America is not what she once was. She has become something altogether different. Where once she sat reverently on the pew singing hymns and thanking God for His great providence, she now sluts herself on every street corner with no sense of decency and no moral compass to speak of.
But the winds are blowing, metaphorically speaking, and they carry with them the acrid stinging scent of conflagration. Out of fire new growth will emerge; that is the honest hope of all men, and the promise of God. Yet this nation is on the fringe of a great purge. We can see the smoke and scull the eddies and winds of wood ash and creosote, but we cannot yet see the flames. Yet somehow, because the fire is still hid from our eyes, we discount and ignore the evidence of smoke, and the stink of elemental transformation. We feel the heat but do not yet see the flames, believing therefore that we are yet safe. There is no fire... We can continue to whore ourselves out to everyone and everything contrary to God.
Then you see with the eyes of the devil. Because God loves man so much He loves us in spite of ourselves. You're being harder on humankind than the Lord Himself is.
"For God so loved the world ..."
"... for God is love ..."
Etc.
I'll never understand how the underlayment of your faith can be fear (of God) and loathing of (humankind)!
I see reasons to praise God every day -- in the faces of everyday people, and even, I dare say, in the faces of "bad" people. Because God loves all of them, utterly! For me to do less is to put MY preferences and pet peeves and worries ahead of the Lord God Almighty's and, frankly, I don't have the cajones to do that.
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
Surely there are ten of us?
Certainly God loves each of us. He loves you, me, Rosie O'Donnell, John Wayne Gacy, Adolph Hitler, even Ann Coulter. And if we repent of our wickedness and come to Him, all will be well with us. This much is true. But Christ did say that there are those for whom He will say at Judgement, "I do not know you." Does that mean He hates them? Is He seeing them with the eyes of the devil? Not at all. But as He is most just, He cannot forget everything. Many of us have made our choices, and there are those who have made choices that will bring about their condemnation. This is not what God would prefer, but justice will prevail. Our host's monologue is a lamentation, not a statement of hatred. It is a recognition of the foul state of mankind today. If you believe that God's love will forego retribution for those who chose to ignore God's Will, then you have created a false god for yourself. I hope that's not what you are implying.
Also, I don't believe Eric has no cause to give God praise, or that his post suggests he is without love for his fellow man. To the contrary, to deny the obvious wickedness of others makes it pretty hard to correct them if one is of a mind to do so. Is it Christian to live and let live if you have the opportunity to guide someone to a more holy existence? His is a simple acknowledgement of man's inherent sinfulness and worse, that so many are totally cool with it. And check it out: if one is concerned with the behavior of others, it pretty much forces one to be concerned with one's own as well, lest one be a hypocrite. I think on some level we have a Christian duty to hold others accountable for their behavior as opposed to allowing or enabling them, as we should expect to be reminded of our own naughtiness as well. This keeps us all on our toes, and, quite frankly, promotes a more Godly and Christian community.
Here's a false god: One who has to be fed, or sacrified to regularly, or held off in any other way, from murdering or otherwise mauling his creation, like any other tribal deity, angry and petulant and capricious.
If Jesus destroyed nothing else, He surely destroyed that.
Re, "makes it pretty hard to correct them if one is of a mind to do so."
I am of no mind to do so. That's the business of the Holy Spirit. My task is to guide people to God, or at least not to get in their way as they seek Him; His task is to bring them to repentance. But I think behavior has very little to do with getting to God, or holiness; rather, changes in behavior come about after encounters with God, not before. Repentance itself is a gift from God.
(This is all pretty basic stuff, not wack at all, although Christians may, indeed, disagree. It all sort of boils down to subject-verb-object, and which is which: Am I the subject or the object? And which is the verb? God saves me? Or, I repent for God? I believe it's the former.
(First grace, which enables repentance, not the other way around. And God is the actor, or subject, and I am the object of his action, not the other way around.)
And yes, in retrospect, I see that this post is a classic lamentation.
Well, that's a good start, but read it one more time and I don't think you'll find that Eric stated he thought God SHOULD destroy the earth, only that it's worthy of it. Important distinction.
For the rest, consider that in Scripture, we are called to repent first. Or at least it seems so. But it depends on what one reads. At one point, He tells a sinner to sin no more. At another, He says of a person that his faith has saved him. The second implies the subject was already seeking the Lord and repentance was not of primary concern. But for the sinner, repentance was obviously was something in which Jesus felt important for the sinner to engage. As we are given choice to follow God or our own desires, we need to choose repentance. If it is as you say, there is no choice involved. Part of coming to Christ is willfully casting off our old selves to become new in Christ, or born again, and that's repentance.
In Evangelizing, one must at some point guide the subject by pointing out when the subject has got it wrong. If his behavior is still counter to God's Will, he has obviously fallen short in his repentance. I'm not referring to how we all fall short of perfection, but that he is routinely behaving counter to God's Will. You can speak to him all day of God's love for us, but if he now rapes with love in his heart, he's missed the boat. Or perhaps he believes he has, through meditation and prayer, become connected with God and feels he is saved, but still discriminates against black people, or confuses hatred of sinful behavior with hatred of the people sinning ala Fred Phelps. Do you not feel any obligation to at least open his mind to his confusion? Are you simply going to let him go his merry way sinning openly whilst claiming to be born again? You haven't then been much good in bringing that person to Christ as far as I can tell. We all need guidance. Some of us need it in a more open manner. In fact, some need it in a very direct manner. This is where the UCC consistently falls short as a representative of the Christian faith. They take the "God is Love" angle to an extreme that jeapardizes one's salvation. Their policy of letting people find their own way allows for some to drop off the cliff. I'll take the heat for whatever offense another might take from my form of guidance, but at least one person will have told him the truth or at least given them something to think about.
I have seen good traits in ER and have told him of them a few times. He seems to picture me as some "old" matriarchal self righteous woman, but I think if we ever meet, he and I will both like each other if we just "watch our mouths".
"But it depends on what one reads."
"If his behavior is still counter to God's Will [I am unable to judge this], he has obviously fallen short in his repentance [I believe we are incable of judging another's repentance]. I'm not referring to how we all fall short of perfection, but that he is routinely behaving counter to God's Will [again, I am not fit to judge this]."
The rape comment is funny. I do not believe myself capable of rape, but I believe I am capable of murder -- and if I murdered, I do not believe that "cancels out" my salvation. Routine murder is another thing: war. (Hadda get that in!)
"still discriminates against black people" -- amusing, considering that the whole of antebellum Southern Christedom did just that until the decade of my birth, the '60s, and then some. Which shows that mores and custom "sin" and civil rights and laws are all not the same thing.
"Their policy of letting people find their own way allows for some to drop off the cliff."
I deny this. I believe if someone seeks Jesus, he or shee will find him. Period. As UCC churches are Christian churches, I see little chance of anyone falling off the cliff. Im mean, unless they totally totally faking -- but that's something else I don't profess to be able to judge.
"He seems to picture me as some "old" matriarchal self righteous woman" -- Mom2, I only started that line after you 1., sillily tried to dismiss my relative youth and 2., seemed to equate age with wisdom. :-)
Piffe. (Just for you, EL!)
Until we're ready to counsel the brethren about eating too much, drinking to much, yelling at their wives, being short with their children, not tithing a full 10 percent, not paying a fair share of taxes by misusing loopholes, for supporting war EVER, for cussing, for ... EVERYTHING, then, why, pshaw.
This reminds me of junior high, when we Southern Baptist kids used to argue with the Pentecostals and Holiness types who believed that if you cussed as your car went off a cliff, you were going to hell.
Here's what I think every time someone wants to jump ugly on a homosexual who gets saved and dantged if they don't continue being homosexual since, you know, it's a state of being, not a "choice."
The most grievous sin is the one that keeps any person from comign to God: fear and pride.
A homosexuakl who dares darken a church door has already repented of the greatest sin!
But I'll step away from the hot-button issue for a bit and say that the use of such in this context is easier than the myriad ways people can fall short of their walk. I have a brother who has basically abandoned his family. He claims he feels guilty all the time and I don't doubt it. His guilt is no doubt the source of much of his emotional and even physical problems. Yet he makes very little effort to really do anything about it. Is his remorse enough? He certainly doesn't restrict other ignoble actions. The bottom line is that it is up to him, but the moment he pretends he's cool, he'd best have some evidence of it before saying such to me. I'm not a fool and I won't pretend for his sake that he's doing anything of substance until he does, and then, like the father of the prodigal son, I'll rejoice and support him in his efforts as I have always offered.
Another thing about judgment: What one sees usually removes any need of judgement. If I witness Bob blowing out Dave's brains, I'm not being judgemental to say that Bob is a killer. I may not have the details to assess whether he's a murderer, but he's definitely a killer. If Bob claims to be saved, I would want to examine those details. If he killed Dave because Dave was about to murder Al, Bob's totally cool and has committed absolutely no sin whatsoever. But, if killing Dave was a job, Bob needs guidance. His claims of being Christian are obviously hollow and meaningless and as Bob's friend, I'm putting on some kevlar and having a talk with him. Somewhere, he's missed a salient point about being saved and repentance. See my point? It's where I was going with the rapist angle. If Steve is womanizing or even raping, and claims he's a Christian, and I become aware of his behavior, it's my duty to step in a help him to see the error in his belief system.
Back to the homo. If I'm a UCC preacher, I would surely welcome any who would seek Christ in my church building. If I knew this one to be a homo, I would not remove any sermon I might have that speaks of the sinfulness of homosexuality, any more than I would a sermon on adultery if I was aware of adulterers in our midst. In fact, it seems I should make sure there is a sermon on the topic for the redemptive benefit of my congregant. On the other end of the spectrum, if I'm a new pastor who is not yet aquainted with my flock, I'd be judgemental if I assume that lispy guy who always dresses in the brightest prints is a homo.
So to see wickedness and not address it or to pretend that all is well whilst it goes on around you, I don't see how your love of your fellow man has much impact. It certainly might on some, maybe many if it is manifested in a profound and compelling manner. But who pays attention to you? That is, how can you know short of someone coming up and saying, "Redneck? You've been an inspiration!"
So yeah, we should be ready to give counsel on any topic, correct any behavior, as we hope others are willing to help guide us as well. It's not so difficult to see when a friend or aquaintance is falling short. Some things are just plain obvious. Here's an anecdote:
A friend, who at least was a church goer at the time, has a different attitude regarding money and it's accumulation than do I. He had received a dent in the rear bumper and I sent him to my brother-in-law for an estimate. He submitted the estimate and was awaiting about 3-400 dollars. Before he could actually get the car to my bro-in-law, he got tagged again in the exact same spot on the car. After talking it over with the kid who hit him, he joyfully reported to me that he was now awaiting another 3-400 dollars! Isn't it great??!!! No, I told him. You're stealing. He had told me the kid didn't add any damage beyond what was already there, but to him, it seemed like a windfall. Until I pointed it out, he did not think of it as theft. Even then he didn't want to.
Now was I judgemental? I guess you could say I was, as I ajudged his actions to be theft from the kid. And one could argue that that one infraction would not bar his heavenly inheritance. But frankly, it's equally judgemental to assume that anyone is going to heaven as it is to assume someone ain't. But at least in my buddy's case, he most likely won't make that mistake again and cause unnecessary loss to another. That's a good thing.
Just to break it up and because I've rambled a bit, I'll stop it here...
I just realized I had a #1, but no #2 or 3. Never mind.
If we don't acknowledge the sinfulness around us, can we make any more than a token difference? If your house is slowly flooding or sinking, are you simply going to dwell on the nice paint job? There's much about our country and world that is a cesspool. It doesn't help anything to pussyfoot around the issue. I doubt you do concerning WAR.
And to that, I would ask you, do you really think that war or violence can never be used to further God's Will? As a martial artist, I know that if fighting is the only option left, the more violent my first response, the less overall damage my opponent suffers. I could bob and weave and punch and kick him in the head and chest, breaking ribs, bloodying the nose, causing concussion and other trauma, or I can break his knee or arm right off. One injury, he can't fight anymore, I'm safe and he'll recover after a couple months, in which time he might reconsider his attitude. Personally, I know there are times when fighting or war is necessary. We live in such a time, and although the course of it is rightly debatable, the fact of it isn't. It certainly wasn't in the 1930's and 40's.
And a fair share of taxes is what is determined by the tax code. What are most often called "loopholes" are merely areas of the code in which one might legally find relief from overpayment. Generally, those who aren't entitled to such deductions scream about loopholes. Other things, like claiming one's pet, is just simply lying and stealing. The word "loophole" is a strawman in most cases.
Not "better", Mom2, just different. Your two cents might be what sinks in and turns the tide.
OK. Done rambling. Thanks for listening.
In short: "can we make any more than a token difference?"
No. Never. And I honestly don't see such a calling. To save the world, no. To save an individual, no.
Your concept of sin, not surprisingly, is much more rigid than mine.
There is one sin: Selfishness. It manifests itself in a million ways, but that's the only one: Me, not God.
The rest is just crap that people use to control other people and their behavior, in an effort to make them more like themselves.
That, sir, is crap. The Bible teaches us behavior acceptable to God, plainly and simply. Because He is Holy, we are to be Holy. If we do not use Scriptural descriptions of Holy and unHoly behavior as our guide, then how do we measure our faith? Simply because we "feel" we're faithful? This goes to my point, that one can feel they are being faithful while engaging in unHoly or sinful behavior. With your sentiment stated above, how can you then speak of war and when it's acceptable or justified? By what measure to you use? Eric, and myself for that matter, see that which would merit destruction based on Biblical descriptions of good and evil, righteousness and wickedness. You said, "There is one sin: Selfishness. It manifests itself in a million ways, but that's the only one: Me, not God." Exactly. But it's those manifestations that are described in Scripture and visible to the eye (or known to be manifestations) that we can speak to in helping others on their path to God. Jesus said to first note the plank in our own eye, but He didn't say to ignore the speck in another's eye.
We've agreed that it's a matter of choice between God's Way and our own. The Bible tells us the difference. Thus, it is plain to see when others are outside of God's way, as it is to determine when we are within It.
I would make a correction here...
"We HAVE ALWAYS lived in such times...."
ER also said something very interesting... Interesting because it is something that I have believed for quite a while. A belief I set down in an old post called Strong Dedicated Beliefs
Every sin in the Universe can be boiled down to a single root... Selfishness.
I would add to this as well, especially since Art touched on it... Selfishness is ultimately a distillate of Will; specifically, our will over the will of God's, or simply, Rebellion-- not THE sin of Lucifer, but certainly its result
I think people cling to human concepts of justice, as explicated in the Bible as the writers, limited by their own humanity, struggled to make sense of God in light of their own Jewishness and in light of the radical message of Jesus. By the time the Gospels were written, they'd fallen back on habits of Hebrew thinking that Jesus pretty specifically blew away. Paul's letters, being closer to Jesus in time, are much less cluttered with the stage props and doctinal specificities that clutter of the Gospels themselves. Thank God the message of Jesus was SO radical that it can't help but shine through despite that, for one who looks.
If Jesus didn't deliver us from having to fearfully count all our sins and weigh them against all our marks of holiness, then just what in the heck did he deliver us from? It's a Pentecostal Holiness way of thinking about grace and sin and redemption that I reject in the name of Love.
Long weekends mean furious work before and after for me, because I have set amounts of work to do no matter the holidays. We can reengage later, perhaps, when I don't need so much of my thinker for workin'. Or not.
Peace. :-)
ER, how can man (who is a sinner) be allowed to even have a personal concept of what sin is? How do we even know what sin is? That's why we have to take God's word for it as He is the only one who isn't a sinner - therefore He's the only one qualified to see it clearly for what it really is.
My concept of sin: There is none righteous. No, not one.
How's that suit ya?
What I'm saying is all the haggling over whether this or that is a sin -- drinking, card-playing, being born homosexual, being born with a propensity to overeat, being born with a tendency toward anger -- is presumptious and a waste of time.
"The Bible teaches us behavior acceptable to God." Yes. Surrender. Learning how to surrender, the details, I mean, is a lifelong endeavor.
Roger, if ANYTHING was clear in the Bible, if the Bible actually were ghostwritten for God by robots, then I might take it at face value. But I can't, because to take it at face value results in nonsense. I refuse to pretend the conradictions aren't there, to ignore this verse or that one isn;t there (although, like everyone, I have my favorites, and I have my general interpretation, as y'all do, which is always based on selective use of Scripture), and I refuse to pretend that it is without error. That's just silly, and it's a supersition that has done, and continues to do, more harm than good for society and the church.
Obviously, I got my work done. And now I'm off to grill steaks fro myself and the lovely Dr. ER.
Peace out, dawgs.
I have faith that God loves me and that through Christ I am saved -- which is the gist of the Gospel, which is found in the New Testament, which is about the only thing that is clear.
I have never, EVER, said the Bible was unnecessary. Ever. I say that to claim it is infallible and inerrant is superstition -- a very old superstition, but a supersition nonetheless.
Alleged inconsistancies? For Christ's sake! And I mean that deliberately, not in vain. You can read. I refuse to believe that you cannot comprehend.
Art, you are like every other marshal arts aficionado I've ever been acquainted with. :-) You need to control yourself, you think you're in control of your situation, and you are very uncomfortable with people who you cannot control, especially if they are like you in most ways -- but not in every jot and tittle.
Written without rancor. You are just very familiar to ne -- and I haven't been around anyone so like a Pentecostal who thought his salvation, and that of the rest of the world, so depended on himself, since high school.
If I've attacked you, sorry. I'll do better. I can think of no other reason for your rancor and smart-assedness toward me, other than garden-variety fear that someone can have every bit of salvation that you have, and not be just like you.
Dude. Relax. Let God be God.
Yeah, I got that. You, me, Dan, Eric, every believer posting agrees that far. But this is a forum for debate and discussion. Save yourself some time when you have no responses and understand that I dig your basic tenant matches mine and everybody else's. Perhaps you'd prefer we all just agree when you've made your responses to the message of a thread.
Now you say "I have never, EVER, said the Bible was unnecessary." Yet, whenever the Bible is used to support a POV, you dismiss the argument because "to claim it is infallible and inerrant is superstition". Fine. On what basis do you object, dispute or otherwise take a contrary position to any point made by others? You've developed quite a no-lose postition for yourself. Just drop in your two cents, and we have to take it on your word. You certainly attacked Eric with the "eyes of the devil" comment, but there's no counter because you dismiss it outright with nothing but your faith and belief system. It's kinda like Muhammed or Joe Smith. Only they saw or heard the revelations they received and everyone else had to just buy in. Sorry. Doesn't work well in this context. You cannot simply trash our position without some basis for doing so. Good gosh, if anyone's trying to do any controlling, it certainly isn't me. I've been trying to discover some understanding of your position, but you won't give an inch. Why don't you just say, "Because I say so!" and save wear on your fingertips?
This, then, is the source of my frustration in discussions with you. Yeah, frustration, not rancor. I can cop to the smartass dig, but you have your moments...
I don't expect mirror images of myself in anyone, I expect it of everyone!!! *snicker* Seriously, I'm trying to understand. We all have our particular shortcomings. One's is no worse than the other's and we can all still spend eternity with the Lord. Another point upon which we can agree (or is it the same point?). Doesn't mean we can't belabor the finer points. Don't get all Yosemite Sam on me just because I'm pressing an issue. That's what's done in this medium. You can take it.
BTW, I'm quite relaxed.
Please forgive. Certain others around here regularly express the opinion that I am not only wrong on particulars, but a sower of tares -- and, well, damned to hell. So, I can get a little thenthitive.