I have noticed something. Something that startled me, and made me wonder about the genuine state of today's Church.
Three mornings a week I drive a delivery van for a local florist. I deliver to a lot of churches and funeral homes. Funeral Homes are one thing; primarily places of business that service the needs of the dead and those they leave behind; a business intent of maintaining a good reputation and serving the individual needs and comforts of individual families. Funeral homes, then, have somewhat of an excuse.
Churches, on the other hand, do not. Nor do the many pastors I've encountered on my deliveries. Can you guess what has never happened to me while delivering flowers to Churches, be it for funerals or otherwise?
I have never been witnessed to.
Not once has a pastor asked about the state of my eternal soul. No pastor, no pastor's wife, no deacon, no secretary, no church member.
Just last month I delivered hospitality baskets to a huge tent revival... no one asked if I was saved.
It has gotten to the point that every time I deliver to a church I look for someone to give them an opportunity, but none ever take it. For the most part they smile and are friendly (yes, there are some who are not), but not a one so far has shown any concern for my eternal well-being.
I should admit here and now that my position doesn't allow me to do the same either, despite the owner being Christian. We are a place of business, and can't afford to offend anyone. But the pastors, and wives, and deacons, and secretaries are under no such constraints. It is their business to inquire after the souls of men.
My last delivery to a church had me very close to pointing this out to the pastor... I wanted to ask him why he didn't tell me about Jesus. What does he have to be afraid of? That I won't ever go to his church? Never put money in the offering plate? His church was some thirty miles out of town... I wouldn't have gone there anyway.
I used to carry tracts with me on deliveries. I have gotten out of that habit. I used to place them in Hospitals and anywhere else where it couldn't have been tracked back to the shop. I need to get back into that habit.
I think you should ask them. You've amassed enough examples of your point and it's time you took it to them. I would be interested in their responses. Also, I think I'll inquire as to my pastor's routine in such situations.
I was touched that she cared enough about my eternal soul to ask. If someone asks me that in the U.S. they are usually from a cult.
P.S. Glad you weighed in over at ER's. They are all yours! I can only take so much of that nonsense.
Ha! Thanks for the laugh.
Personally I think it's sad that these types can so readily accept the Rice-Crispy Treat portions of scripture, but can't stomach--let alone grasp--the meat and potatoes.
The sweet stuff certainly has its place, but you can't live on Rice Crispy treats alone. Not and be healthy. You can't even live on BREAD alone!
...but by EVERY word of God. Not just the sweet parts.
And I can't believe you are whining abut not getting witnessed to, EL! You just want to get the personal confirmation you would get by being able to say, "Oh, thanks, but I'm already saved."
Gah.
And this takes the cake:
"I should admit here and now that my position doesn't allow me to do the same either, despite the owner being Christian. We are a place of business, and can't afford to offend anyone."
Makes me want to puke. For a couple of reasons. One, it's the pinnacle of hypocrsy for you to even HAVE an opinion about how I or anyone else lives out their Christian faith if you are so timid in your own! Two, the mere fact that you can divorce "witnessing" from the rest of your life is astounding to me. It really IS all about what you know with you, isn't it?
People who know me know I am a Christian, a Democrat, from a small town, have an interest in history -- and many other things, NOT because I dropped a tract on their desk, or "witnessed" to them about being a Democrat, or announced at a service that I'm from rural Oklahoma, or because I tried to "win" their "soul." They know these things about me because I live them, talk about them, shape my world view by them and never hide my light under any bushel no matter what that light is.
Seriously, I'd repent of the gossip and backbiting.
You mean the passages like:
Thus says the LORD: Act with justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor anyone who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place…
Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover them and not hide yourself from your own kin?...
Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you…
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal…
Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me…"
In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple…
Cease to do evil, learn to do good; Seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow…
He has sent me to bring good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to captives, and to the blind new sight, to set the downtrodden free, to proclaim the Lord's year of favor.
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example that you should follow in his footsteps…
Then he said to all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it…’
And you know I could go on and on, but you get the drift. THESE are the passages we embrace at our church. This accepting of the cross of Jesus, to lay our lives on the line (sometimes quite literally) and doing so without protection of guns or bombs, but trusting in God to deliver or not.
Pouring ourselves out for the homeless, the poor, the marginalized the oppressed, for the sake of Christ; Living a downwardly mobile life, flowing against the self-indulgent consumerist flow of our culture, THOSE sweet little teachings? Are those the ones that you find “sweet”?
I hope so, because I do, too. It is a sweet, grace-full, lovely way to live, if somewhat dangerous and daunting.
But I don’t see how those aren’t the meat and potatoes of the Bible, as well. Do you think these are not the meatier parts of the Gospel? “The weightier matters of the law” as Jesus said – encouraging us to embrace living justly?
I suspect that you’d agree with me that these are meatier matters. I hope so.
Even if it is sweet.
Jesus' comments to the Pharisees:
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others"
And, more directly,the teaching from Hebrews:
Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, (and) not solid food.
Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child.
But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.
In both of these, what I get from it is that moving from basic teachings (whether basic teachings of the law that Jesus confronts the Pharisees about or the basic teachings of Grace to which the Hebrews author refers) to more serious, grown-up concerns of dealing with matters of justice.
What I get out of this is that, Yes, we ARE saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus. Thank God. But let's not stop there, let's move beyond that to a more grown-up faith system that moves beyond just our own selfish concerns (I'm saved, yea Me!) to the concerns of justice.
Which I think is fairly orthodox Christian teaching. Is that what you were referencing with those who'd stick to rice krispie treats (TM)? If so, then cool. We agree again.
"Jesus's walking on water -- great stor[y], full of meaning and truth -- but facts, eh, probably not so much." --Typical and quite recent ER
Good grief! He holds up men (I think) like Robin Meyer who makes ridiculous statements like...
"we wouldn't care is someone found the entire skeleton of Jesus -- we would still believe that Easter is real and that God raised Jesus from the dead"
The man believes tripe. And defends tripe. And defends those who spout tripe. On top of all this ER misses the entire point of this post. He's missed the entire point of the Gospel, why am I not surprised he's missed it here?
You on the other hand, despite our gaping disagreement on specific issues, have yet to suggest that Jesus didn't walk of water. Or that archaeologists finding the complete skeleton of Jesus wouldn't entirely collapse Christianity like a giant house of cards. You are far more reasonable and agreeable than ER.
I see more of a Christian in you than I do him, Geoffrey, and by Geoff's admission... his own wife. To say nothing of some of his other guests.
ER on occasion is quite gracious. But I don't fault his graciousness, I fault his grasp of biblical truth.
The sweet stuff ER likes to cling to are indeed many of the things you quote, but he- as do you on occasion -throw out the "ugly" parts, the parts that aren't very nice.
What does Amos 3:3 say? "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
How about 2 Corinthians 6:14? "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
Maybe ER is saved-- it's not for me to say. But he communes with and defends those who abide in darkness. I could simply ignore the things he says at his place. For that matter, but someone has to counter the horror he inflicts on the Gospel. I don't expect to change anyones mind over there; they're all too "enlightened" to BE enlightened, but someone has to say something! Someone has to counter his abuse of biblical truth.
Why does Eric's observation regarding the lack of Evangelism by ministers he meets mean that he is just waiting to brag that he's already saved? I could say the same thing about all the churches I stop in in the course of my business day. I can't recall anyone ever asking me if I'm saved. I do remember one fella praying that God helps me fix the machine I came to fix, and then giving praise that I was able to fix it. But even he never asked if I was saved. Not that I can recall, it was over twenty years ago. So I noticed it, too.
EL, tell me what you find objectionable about this:
"We are heirs to the story of how ordinary, clueless, even cowardly disciples experienced the mysterious presence of Jesus after his execution, and it transformed them into new human beings. In response to this mystery, they formed communities that welcomed everyone, and dared to say that he was the Son of God, not Caeser. They ceased all animal sacrifice, believing that God no longer needed to be bargained with, and ultimately gave their lives in service to an alternative community where the only creed was 'Jesus Christ is Lord.'
BTW, I guess my suggestion that you would use a witnessing encounter as an occasion to boast was a cheap shot. Sorry about that. Heat gets hot. But it just boggles that you would complain about never being witnessed to and in the same breath admit that you put financial gain over the obligation you, and I, have to LIVE OUR LIVES (as opposed to just flapping our lips) as Christians. After all the goldarn high horses you constantly ride, while riding down other people's decisions about how to live their faith -- well, it's just outrageous.
And as you pointed out, I DID admit to my own failing-- very publicly I might add --and you've chosen to use it as a club.
But I suggest you're more upset at my calling your faith into question than you are with the post in general, though I'm sure you would have found something objectionable to say in the end. You usually do. Not always, but usually.
You see, from where I sit... if you'll doubt the veracity of the Gospel account of Jesus walking on water, I have to wonder where you'll draw the line and why? Did he raise Lazarus from the dead? Did He heal lepers, restore sight to the blind? Make the lame to walk? Did Jesus really turn water into wine? Or is that another mythic episode containing truth but not THE truth?
Did Moses and the Israelites cross the PARTED Red Sea, or did they escape over a marsh of reeds? Were they miraculously fed for 40 years, with Manna and Quail? Did the sun and moon really stand still in the sky for Joshua? Did the shadow really ease back a few inches for poor old Hezekiah? Was Sodom and Gomorrah really consumed by fire from heaven?
Did Peter really heal that guy in the Temple? Did Stephen really see the Lord standing at the right hand of the Father? Did the Lord really speak to Saul on the road to Damascus? Or is that a myth too?
Was Paul really a "usurper" of the Christian faith... stealing it from the Jews... as someone said at your place?
Just where do you draw the line?
And why?
What WILL you defend? Because again, from where I sit you spend a lot of time over there basking in heresy. So naturally I wonder... 'Is he really saved at all?'
Actually, no, you don't.
Re, "So naturally I wonder... 'Is he really saved at all?'"
Well, stop.
I think it's ludicrous for any of us to think we have enough of a handle on the natural world to be able to distinguish natural from supernatural. I think it's all the same thing.
I doubt all the miracles. That is not to say I definitively believe they did not happen. It's just not important to me whether they did or not! And precisely for this reason: You have a damned checklist -- and I use the d-word deliberately -- to decide who your brothers in Christ are, which has NOTHING to do with the gist of the Gospel. That's *your* club, EL, and I think it is of the devil, whethetr the devil is literal, metaphor or whatever. You use this checklist of ideas about the Bible -- I won't even dignify them by raising them to the level of "doctrine" -- that you use to slam the door to Grace to all comers who do not line up with you on them all. It's insane.
And YOU think my sloppy-Grace way if "foolishness." Remember what the Bible says about who counted what as "foolishness."
One other point: I didn't mean to jump ugly on you for nor witnessing as much as I meant to castigate you for separating "witnessing" from your life in general. I'll tell ya, dude: A rank stranger comes up to me and starts "telling me about Jesus," and he's gonna get an earful about how to witness -- and in a nutshell, it's this: Chritianity is relational! Share your life, and your faith, with people you know. Don't cheapen it by treatign it like door-to-door vacuum cleaners or kids selling magazines! Good Lord! It's not like there is any shortage of churches in the South, dude. You know why lots of them are empty? Because complete strangers were pushy enough to go up to other complete strangers and try to sell them a bunch of words that have NO meaning until the Lord blesses them, and pretend that "faith in Jesus" is all salvation requires -- but nooooo, here are these BS notions about the Bible and its origins and how it should be treated and venerated, so it's really a bait-and-switch deal, Jesus is just the teaser, but then you got to take all the other crap, and you got to take it MY way, or you're really not saved at all -- and it pisses people off, alienates them, and I dare say there are many people in hell today from the American South BECAUSE of "witnessing activities" than in SPITE of them -- and you are damn right I am pissed about it.
Paul left two examples that come immediately to mind; He contended in the marketplace of ideas on Mars Hill -- a place where peopel went to talk about such things as the gods, and philosophy, etc., not unlike these blogs. And he also moved into a community, became part of the community, made tents, and used that as a basis for sharing the faith.
I don't know what's been happening at ER's...I try to avoid spoiled food as well.
But...I can be SURE that Er is admiring himself...while stealthily cursing God's Word.
I am sure of that.
I should be laughing at your JOKE, I guess. But if I didn't believe to my bones that you and those like you do more harm to the cause of Christ than good, I wouldn't be so PISSED.
Go alienate somebody from Jesus tomorrow, OK? You'll feel better about your SELF.
In the words of Howard Dean: "Aiiiiighghhhhhhhhh!"
But I'm used to being misrepresented by our Ten-Commandment-posting brethren (who miss the irony).
And I reckon I'm with ER (in what he has actually said here, at least) in that I don't hold that believing in the literal miracles of Jesus as an essential for salvation.
I personally DO believe in them, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings or damage my faith if there were other explanations for them.
I'm thinking of Jesus when the pharisees asked him for a sign or wonder and Jesus said:
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth..."
The healings and wonders that happened were signs of God - as were the love and forgiveness and powerful teachings - but they aren't the be all and end all of my faith.
I just don't think it biblical to insist on believing in those as essential to salvation, rather, I'm old fashioned enough to think that we are saved by God's Grace through faith in Jesus, and asking Jesus to be the Lord of our lives, following in his steps. Agreeing that His way is the Right way. Period.
And since Jesus never insists that I believe in the miracles in order to be saved (or the Triune nature of God or the Virgin Mary or other human traditions), I don't insist anyone else believe in them.
I'm a literalist, that way...
But I don't ascribe to your standard. Your standard is sloppy, with little or no standards of conduct of belief.
I worship the only Jesus there is, the one described in the Bible. The one who said, "NO man comes to the father but by me." The one who said, "Go into the highways and hedges and compel them to come in," not wait until you've made friends with them before witnessing to them. The same LORD who bargained with Abraham about how many righteous men it would take to spare Sodom and Gomorrah. The same LORD who walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. The same LORD who is returning soon, so you better get ready.
You spend far too much time at your place and here criticizing the beliefs of others, but when we stand up to you you get all snarky and disrespectful...
There is but one thing necessary for salvation... Only one thing WE need do; and that is to openly and publicly confess our belief that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day.
That's all.
There is one caveat however: Unless the Spirit draws you, you are none of His.
It is not necessary to believe Jesus walked on water or changed water to wine, or cast out demons, healed the sick, raised the dead, or any other number of miracles. But by denying these things in whole or in part, you dilute the efficacy of Jesus' ability to save anyone. No normal man could pay for anyones sins let alone his own. Jesus therefore was a supraman... greater than a man. Not an angel, not a man, but the son of God, and God Himself, cloaked in humanity. Only God could pay for our sins. Only the blood of a holy God could erase our sins. You don't have to believe Jesus is God to become saved, but if you don't come to this conclusion in time after you are saved, there is something wrong with your understanding of Jesus and the sacrifice of love He made for you.
I reckon a man can be saved and not believe His savior changed water into wine, but what a shallow picture of Christ such a one holds in their heart.
1. God is all-powerful.
2. God is all-knowing.
3. God is a loving god.
4. God can not stand sin.
5. God created angels, humanity, and physical reality.
6. Lucifer the angel rebelled against god's will.
7. Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
8. All of humanity is stained with sin. And is tempted by Lucifer to greater sinning.
Aren't points six and seven a direct contradiction of points one and two. For Lucifer, Adam and Eve to rebel against the Creator then before they were created God had to know how the play would turn out. Lucifer had to have been created with the purpose of the temptation of humanity. Adam and Eve were created when God knew the choices they, and you and I and everything else would make. And since they were created, and according to you people are going to hell, then that's a pretty stark indictment against point number three.
An all-powerful god can do what it wants. If it doesn't like "knowledge of good and evil" it can take it away. If it doesn't want to split itself in thirds and be nailed to wood on a little insignificant backwater planet. Then it doesn't have to. And if it doesn't want awful (I wish I had a better word. Awful is much to mild for the sentiment I wish to express here.) punishments for not following it's vague rules to paradise then there don't have to be vague rules or awful punishments.
If the christian mythos is true then one presumes Adolph Hitler is in hell. The thought satisfies some perfectly human need for vengeance and justice, for man who inspired such mortal misery to be tortured. Where the story becomes unbelievable is when one pairs that thought of anyone being tortured for all eternity with the idea of a loving and just god. Because if you are right EL, ER, Dan, et,al then when all the stars have burnt out, and you have been lapping up glory in heaven for a quadrillion years then that being, Adolf Hitler, will still be in torment, for things that happened within a span of 50 mortal years.
That's your belief system, and I hope it's not true. I can't support it. When I die if it's true, I'll go to hell and that's where I'll be till the end of time, because the creator of the universe is a vengeful-angry-bastard.
From my way of thinking, Ben, God certainly could have done that, but the people who have no knowledge of good and evil - who have no choice but to obey God - would not be created in the image of God, who does know good and evil.
And, not knowing good and evil, not having the choice to obey, it seems that we'd be mere automatons - robots with no choice but to obey.
And God wanted Pinnochio to be a real boy.
Seems to me.
The words of Jesus also express imminency "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." -Matthew 25:13
No one knows the day or the hour, but we are told we CAN know when that day and hour are near.
Because if you are right EL, ER, Dan, et,al then when all the stars have burnt out, and you have been lapping up glory in heaven for a quadrillion years then that being, Adolf Hitler, will still be in torment...
As to this, I don't pretend to know what "eternity" holds. The Bible has many things to say about it - not all of it clear to me. Sheol is talked about in the OT a bit, but I don't believe it is ever defined like the "burning lake of fire" of Revelation.
Revelation uses all sorts of fantastic imagery - and I've read it described as sort of like one of our Hollywood fantasies with explosions and monsters and all sorts of drama and excitement. I don't know that it's meant to be taken literally.
The Bible never tells us how to take each and every imagery used within its collected pages and so I read it for what it's worth and glean what seems to me to be the important truths.
And, despite some protestation from some quarters, that's what we all do.
Which is not to say that I don't believe in objective Truth, just that I realize that we flawed humans are taking our best stab at what is objective Truth and sometimes we get it wrong.
What it comes down to for me is this whole free choice thing. I don't believe that God will make anyone participate in "heaven" - in being in God's presence - if they don't want to. And, to me, being apart from God is hell.
It seems to me that Hitler rejected the Love, Truth, Justice and other essential elements of God and thus, created his own Hell of death, destruction, fear and hatred.
Is he still in his own hell? I'd have to say that I don't know, not being omniscient and all. Sorry, but I just don't know. From what I've seen of folk who embrace hellishness on earth, I don't often see much desire to reject it but God's ways are beyond mine, so who knows?
As to "the end of the world," I'll own up to not knowing when that is, either. I suspect when Walmart merges with the Global States of the Americas to implement the corporate rule of the Blue-Vested Meanies, that would be a sign of the End Times.
As to Bent's other questions...
Yes. God knew before even He created Lucifer, angels, and men who would and who would not rebel; or sin. God knew this would happen and had a plan in place to redeem man even before man was created. The Bible clearly states that Jesus was "slain from the foundation of the world." -Revelation 13:8
Lucifer's "purpose" was not to rebel and lead man into rebellion. Lucifer's purpose was to guard the throne of God... he was "the anointed Cherub that covereth" and perfect in every way until iniquity was found in him... namely Pride, Covetousness, and Jealousy -Ezekiel 28:14-15
But God demonstrated His love toward us in that HE took on mortal flesh... the God of the Universe; the only being capable of redeeming ALL of mankind. It is true that no man can look upon the face of God and live, but in Jesus we can see God for He IS God, tabernacled in flesh -Hebrews 9:11.
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." -Romans 5:8
The "vague rules" to which you refer are anything but.
The rules of Salvation are quite clear. The rules of walking in Christ are quite clear. What is expected of us in that walk are likewise very clear. --I began work last night on a post that covers all this... stay tuned.
You said: "When I die if it's true, I'll go to hell and that's where I'll be till the end of time, because the creator of the universe is a vengeful-angry-bastard."
Not "till the end of time..." Forever. And I can understand why you don't wish to accept it. It's a very frightening eventuality to consider. You don't want to go there... Dan doesn't want you to got there, ER doesn't want you to go there, nor does Neil, Art, Mark, Ms Green, or Daddio. Honest. I don't want you to go there. But having said as much I also know you are not receptive to anything I have to say about God. And as much as it pains me, I accept that, but please know that I do honestly pray for you. I don't want to see you there either.
But if you do end up there, it won't be because God is a "Vengeful Bastard," but because you were offered a free ticket to Heaven and declined.
It is my sincerest prayer and hope that you will one day change your mind about all this and accept Jesus as your savior; have your sins forgiven and spend eternity in Heaven.
It won't be boring there. I don't believe you'll be issued a harp and a cloud and be forced to sit in an everlasting worship service. God is not slothful, nor will we be. There will be work for us to do, work that is suited to our individual God-given abilities and skills; work that will be both purposeful and satisfying. We'll be able to eat food, enjoy recreation, and in everything we do praise the One who redeemed us.
You don't have to go to the other place, Bent. No one does. And I sincerely hope you choose not to.
It is what it is, and it is honest.
But I don't know where you get that I claim there are many paths to God! Where do you get that? Jesus. Is. The. Way. I just don't believe that it is necesarry, necesarrily, to know that in your head -- if your heart, humbled before the Creator, acknowledges that the Creator has to have provided a bridge and that oneself, as the created, is unable to. Big difference. ... Of course, I honestly do lean toward universalism the more I admit how screwed up, pitiful attempts at comprehending the incomprehendlable ALL religions are. All.
This study points out that oftentimes in the OT, "sheol" (or, as it is sometimes translated, "the grave") is just death. Where you are buried when you die.
Joseph apparently went there, his father thought - and he wanted to join Joseph there. It is symbolic of the pits of despair - but not beyond God's reach (as in, "From the depths of THE GRAVE, I called for help, and you listened to my cry..." - Jonah 2:2).
I have heard it argued that the Hebrews did not have the concept of Heaven and hell as we do. I don't believe you receive promises of pie in the sky by and by in the OT, although there are some - Elijah, for instance - who are merely gone to be with the Lord, the assumption in the OT seems to be that when you die, you die. End of story.
Just pointing out that there does not seem to be one seamless concept of "where we go when we die" in the Bible as many of us have been raised to believe.
And here are some more thoughts on the topic as it relates to the NT, as well. I've heard it pointed out that our concepts of hell derive more from Dante's Inferno than they do from the Bible.
I'm just saying.