...and often maliciously deliberate --let's push back the fog of 'misconceptions' surrounding the differences between Islam and Christianity.
Per my last post, the author makes the following observation:
Only Islamic clerics sanction the murder of women who have been raped. Only Islamic clerics issue murderous fatwas, celebrate murder of artists, and mobilize sword-wielding men to demand death for a female teacher who allowed children to name a teddy bear 'Mohammed'. Only Islam proudly exhibits videos of throat-cutters torturing helpless victims.
True. Anyone watching the news these last few years cannot objectively dismiss it. Christianity, on the other hand has never condoned such behavior. "Christians" throughout the centuries certainly have promoted the idea that women are "less" than men, but considering the most basic difference* between Islam and Christianity, such men's status as "Christian" is in doubt. Truth: Christianity does not condone murder... not even the thought of murder.
On another front. Islam, in its more extreme forms, hides its women in croaker-sacks**. Christianity only asks that women dress modestly so as not to draw untoward attention from the opposite sex. As with murder, sexual impurity for the Christian is more than a physical act, it is a thought crime against God's Law. Just thinking with lust upon a member of the opposite sex is just as, and equally punishable, as the physical act under God's Law. Islam subjugates an entire segment of society because MEN cannot control their own base desires. Islam punishes the woman who is raped more severely than the rapist-- if he is punished at all. Many Muslims-- and other cultures --see nothing wrong with Female Genitalia Mutilation, or Female Circumcision. One reason for this practice that I've encountered is the idea that Women should not enjoy sex; that sexual pleasure is strictly for the male. Some Muslim communities even see it as fine and proper for a girl to be given away in marriage at nine years of age-- Mohammad himself had a nine year old wife.
And Islam does not condemn ANY of these practices***. How Christianity can then be said to be more similar to Muslim perversions toward women than disparate, requires one to willing accept a colossal pile of steaming ignorance, and call it 'informed' and 'palatable'.
Women have held subordinate roles in Western cultures for as long as there has been Western Culture, but this doesn't mean Christianity sanctions such. Taking time to actually read the Bible, one will find nothing to suggest that women should be treated with anything less than genuine unabashed respect. The Bible says we are to love our wives as Christ loved the Church. Throw that in with 'love your neighbor as yourself,' and it becomes clear to any objective reader that Christianity is not even remotely similar to Islam.
But this will fall on far too many deaf ears. The O'Donnell mindset on this is just too entrenched in far too many Liberal minds. There are of course exceptions: few Liberals who comment here actually ascribe to Rosie's brand of Liberalism-- a dangerous and fast-growing brand of Liberalism --that says Radical Christianity is every bit as dangerous as Radical Islam.
In conclusion, please consider this: Islam sees the world in only two "Houses": Dar al-Islam, the House of Islam; and Dar al-harb, the House of War. Islam is NOT a religion of peace... again, there is far too much ignorance in the Liberal mindset in this respect. There can be no peace with Islam for the simple reason that THEY do not believe there can be peace. Even the leaders of CAIR, who want only to 'improve relations' between Muslims and non-Muslims in America, ultimately want to see America under Sharia Law... the very Law that subjugates women, treats them less than dogs, allows for the mutilation of female genitalia, and stones them because MEN rape them. And many many more atrocities besides.
Naturally, had I the time, this post would be much much longer. As it is, some will find plenty to argue. But I'll not argue with people who can't see the obvious, or with those who, rather than argue the points, seek to divert attention by erecting 'strawman' tangents... something they can burn down... something over which they can feel proud of themselves.
---
* Muslims are born Muslim, whereas Christians born into the Church by Christ's blood.
** A Southern colloquialism, for a 'rough unattractive bag'
*** What is not forbidden in Islam is Allowed
19 Comments:
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Eric, you note - rightly - that just because SOME Christians and Christians groups have had (and some still do) misogynistic and domineering attitudes towards women does not mean that Christianity endorses such.
You rightly note (I believe you have) in places that just because some who call themselves Christians might endorse and even enjoy violence, that Christianity itself does not endorse or enjoy violence.
You are able to separate out the teachings of Christianity and of different segments of Christianity from those who would teach distorted versions of that faith.
Why are you unable to do so for Islam?
It is simply a falsehood, Eric, to say that "THEY" do not believe in peace. I have a Christian minister friend who lives in Muslim Morocco and she tells me that they DO INDEED believe in peace. "They" being the many Muslims she knows.
Some of "them" do not believe in peace. Some of "them" do believe in oppressive and violent attitudes towards women and gays. Just as "SOME" Christians do.
That "SOME" of any group thinks one way does not mean they all do. You recognize that in Christianity. Why do you not recognize it in Islam? Could it be you know NO Muslims on which to base your opinion? Could it be you've never had a conversation with a Muslim?
Could it be based on ignorance (in the "simply unaware" meaning of the word)?
I'm not a Muslim for a reason. There are too many negative points to their communities - even if it's not implicit in their faith.
It's the same reason (only in the extreme) why I wouldn't care to be a Southern Baptist anymore - or even the Amish (as much as I admire them and appreciate their traditions, they, too, have too patriarchal a culture for me to embrace fully). Just too much baggage there. And even moreso with Islam.
And even extremely moreso with extreme Islam.
All I'm saying is that we can't paint all of Islam with one brush. It's no more fair than painting all Christians with one brush.
Perhaps I should have said, "Islam does not believe in peace."
But Muslims adhere to the Qur'an; threatening to kill anyone who defames or desecrates it. Theo Van Gogh Immediately comes to mind... and many more besides.
So what does the Qur'an teach?
Surah 2:193--
"Fight against them until idolatry [non-Muslims/Infidels] is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme."
Surah 8:39--
"Make war on them [Infidels] until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme."
Surah 2:216--
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not."
Dan also said: "I have a Christian minister friend who lives in Muslim Morocco and she tells me that they DO INDEED believe in peace. "They" being the many Muslims she knows."
Aside from the fact that this is purely anecdotal, I'm quite sure many Muslims DO believe in peace, but peace predicated upon what value system? And when will the Imams-- who quite literally RULE over their flocks --declare peace? When all the world is under the banner of Islam? What was it Surahs 2:193 and 8:39 declare? Oh, that's right! Fight until ISLAM reigns supreme. And even though many Muslims want peace, according to Surah 2:216, fighting is OBLIGATORY. And even though they may not like it, Allah knows what is best for them, and the Imams RELIGIOUSLY cling to the Qur'an as straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I think it incredibly naive of you or ANYONE to try to deflect attention from what Islam actually teaches, in hopes of convincing America that Islam is no threat to our way of life. Maybe not in the next 20-25 years, here. But in Europe the repercussions of their ignorance are beginning to blossom.
Then again, Islam DID threaten our way of life. Most profoundly on 9/11, but in truth, Islam has been at war with the west far longer than a mere 6 years. Islam has waged a war against the U.S. and U.S. targets and citizens for decades. It took 9/11 to wake us up, but all we really did was peek out the window and let the dog out, before climbing right back into bed... metaphorically speaking.
Perhaps your most disturbing statement is this:
"I'm not a Muslim for a reason. There are too many negative points to their communities - even if it's not implicit in their faith."
Is that the only reason!? What!? The fact that Christ is the only atonement provided by God for our sins is not reason enough? Jesus, the ONLY atonement that allows ANYONE entry into Heaven is not enough? Reading your statement again, I can't help but wonder why you're even a Christian? Because there are FEWER negative points within the Christian community? That's not enough to call oneself a Christian, Dan, and you well know it.
Ergun Caner: Islam is not a Peaceful Religion
Thursday, March 7, 2002
CBN.com, The 700 Club
Former Muslim Ergun Caner appears on The 700 Club to discuss Islam and give us an inside look at Muslim beliefs.
Ergun is the oldest son of a Muslim mwazien. The mwazien is similar to a preacher. In 1982 when he was 16 years old, he attended a revival service in Columbus, Ohio, at the invitation of a high school friend and accepted Christ. Ergun started attending church on Monday, accepted Christ on a Thursday -- and had his first piece of ham at a Youth Afterglow activity days later.
When Ergun attended the mosque the next day, his youth group of Shiite Muslims "beat the tar out of me," he says. Ergun's parents were separated at the time (prior to a divorce), and when his father found out about his salvation, he confronted Ergun. When Ergun refused to repudiate his faith in Christ, his father disowned him -- by facing Mecca and praying a prayer of abandonment because it was embarrassing that his oldest son would accept Christ. Sadly this effectively ended their relationship. Ergun didn't see his father for 17 years, until three days before his dad's death in 1999.
Ergun's Swedish mother met and married a Turkish man . They relocated to the U.S .where the younger brothers were born. Ergun says he was called to preach one year after salvation (he began college at 16), becoming a pastor at age 17 to a small country church in Manchester, Kentucky.
He says it was a mystery to him that God would call him because at the time, Ergun didn't speak English very well and didn't fully understand the Scriptures. He felt that he was all alone because neither his mother, nor his grandmother, were Christians. But he gladly accepted the call, and led his brothers to Christ the same week of his salvation.
Islam Is Not A Peaceful Religion
As the son of a mwazein, Ergun had to learn the hadith (the sayings and traditions of Muhammed, the Prophet of Islam) in the Qur'an. In these teachings, Ergun says the central thesis of Islam does in fact have an essential tenet of militaristic conquest at its heart. The infidel, or unbeliever, must be converted or conquered. If the Muslim dies in such a struggle or declaration of war (jihad), he is promised immediate translation into the highest level of paradise. Therefore, when pressed most Muslims would say that Mohamed Ata is in heaven according to the Qur'anic teaching.
The Qur'an, supposedly from the mouth of Allah, takes a dim view of the non-believer and a strict view of jihad as a warfare against them. In Surah 2:190, Allah says, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you. And slay them wherever you catch them." Physical warfare is an absolute necessity so that Allah is honored and worshipped. Jihad is one of the highest calls of life for a Muslim. "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives." Surah 4.95
According to the doctrine of jihad there are three waves of jihad. The first wave is the shock -- which was Sept 11.
The second wave is to show a people that they are vulnerable. It has to be public. "Daniel Pearl was killed on videotape," says Ergun. There is no question that group who killed Pearl is a subgroup of the radical Muslim fundamental group, Mujahdeen.
The third wave is to humiliate your enemy, to "cut the legs out from under them." "Thank God President Bush responded as he did," Ergun says. "If he had not, the second wave would have been much, much worse than the first." The Koran teaches that if your enemy is weak -- conquer him. If he is strong -- respect him. That means they keep going until they meet with resistance.
When asked if he believes Osama bin Laden is still alive, Ergun says yes. "He is considered to be a martyr in their faith. If he were dead, they would be hailing him."
Peace With Allah, Not Us
"I must take this opportunity to side with Pat," says Ergun. "He cannot take these hits (from the media and press) alone." Ergun says the word "Islam" means "peace with Allah" not "peace with us." "We are the infidels and therefore the enemy," says Ergun.
He further explains that when a Christian blows up an abortion clinic, he does that in spite of the teachings of Jesus Christ. "Muslims perform jihad because of the teachings of Muhammed," declares Ergun. "Make no mistake, they are at war with us and these are not just radical Muslims."
Osama bin Laden is a Sunni Muslim, not a Shiite, which is considered the more radical of the two. When bin Laden is on television, he is quoting the Qur'an. "It is difficult to take the Qur'an out of context," says Ergun. Even to the casual reader, jihad is more than just an intellectual exercise of struggle, but rather an engagement in battle and struggle and warfare with death as a conclusion for the Muslim blessing.
Muhammad echoed this conclusion in Hadith 4.73 "Muhammed said, "Know that paradise is under the shades of the sword." For the Muslim apologists who redact the terminology to indicate that fighting is perhaps an intellectual debate must read Surah 2:216, "Fighting is prescribed for you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not." It is impossible to determine that the text means anything but fighting in the traditional sense of combat.
A Muslim is a Muslim by birth, but many are illiterate. Therefore they must take the word of the imam, equivalent to a pastor, as truth. They cannot question the validity of what the imam says.
With reference to the recent Gallup poll, "they hate us," says Ergun. "And they cannot make the distinction between an American and a Christian because of the way they are brought up culturally. When you say a man is a Turk, it is understood that he is Muslim."
Ergun believes that the United States did not finish the job in the Gulf War. He believes that we will not end the war on terrorism without including Saddam Hussein, who is the major fundraiser for Islam. "If we do not go after him, this will never end," he says. "He will continue the jihad."
Incredible Opportunity
But in the midst of this turmoil, Ergun says this is the most incredible opportunity to witness to Muslims. They are beginning to understand their religion. Many do not want to be part of the violence and are coming to Christ. The difference between reaching them and not reaching them depends on the teaching of grace.
"The single most important thing to do is teach on grace," he says. To Muslims, the intimacy of God is so new. Teach them that they don't have to live in fear of the "scales of Allah," which are seen as actual scales (2 Surah 4). For the Muslims who fear the scales that measure their eternal damnation if weighted heavier for evil than good, this is the only true eternal security they have.
Christians should also know that Allah and God are not the same. "No serious or intellectual Muslim would say that Allah has a Son, that He is a Triune, nor that He is personal," Ergun says. Allah is Creator and Judge. Christ's attributes are so totally different. He is loving, kind, gracious, and forgiving.
As a Christian, Ergun is offended when he hears people say that God and Allah are the same. Many think getting to God is like getting to Chicago. You can get there by plane, train or auto. It doesn't matter what path you take, as long as you get there. Ergun calls this the "Oprahization" of American culture.
On October 19, 2001, Ergun spoke before the UN at the Subcommittee on Cultural Affairs. As an expert on Islam and one who speaks Arabic, he is being invited to participate in even more high-level projects on this area. There are only 20 former Muslims who are now preachers in America; there are only eight (and Ergun is one of them) who are professors of theology.
----
The Christian Broadcasting Network, Inc. © 2002
From The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248 50 (London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899)
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property-- either as a child, a wife, or a concubine --must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen; all know how to die; but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.
Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science-- the science against which it had vainly struggled --the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."
She risks becoming a martyr herself.
YOU say, Eric, that Islam is not a religion of peace, but YOU do not speak for Islam. Like Christianity, no one speaks for Islam. It is a diverse group of people who interpret the Qu'ran differently from one another.
You know very well (I'm assuming) that there are passages I could pluck out of the Bible that call for killing off the unbelievers...
(Moses slaying the calf worshipers within his camp in Exodus 32,for instance:
Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
Or how about that passage in Deuteronomy 20 where God says that IF the foreigners agree to make peace, then they may live as slaves to Israel. Otherwise Israel is to slay them?
Hopefully, you're familiar enough with the Bible to know that I could go on for quite a while quoting verses similar to the ones you quote from the Qu'ran.)
In the real world, not every Muslim agrees with Eric. Some might. Others don't. Some are truly peaceful and teach that as the TRUE Way of Islam.
My preacher friend in Morocco says that her Muslim friends come closer to practicing the moral teachings of Jesus than most Christians that make the news - including the Peacemaking teachings.
And Eric, you know that I'm NOT a Muslim for many reasons, the chief being that I'm a follower of Jesus as he is portrayed in the Bible. But that point wasn't relevant to my point I was making. Don't make every little thing into an argument.
The simple fact is that the Bible is broken into two distinct parts: the Old Testament and/or Covenant, and the New Testament... The Qur'an is not. There is plenty of wisdom to be gleaned from the Old Testament, but we are commanded to follow Jesus.... not Moses, or Joshua, or David.
The same cannot be said of the Qur'an, and you well know it.... Or maybe you don't. Perhaps you've not even bothered to read the Qur'an.
Surah 113, in its entirety:
"Say: God is one, the eternal God. He has begotten none, nor was he begotten. None is equal to him."
That statement alone demonstrates that Islam does not worship the same God as Christianity. If it is not God they worship, it is someone altogether evil. However loving Muslims can be, however closer to following the teachings of Jesus they may be, they are nonetheless lost without the witness of people like your friend in Morocco.
We are in a battle-- spiritually speaking. The war itself was won two-thousand years ago, but the enemy is still active... still seeking whom he may devour. Islam is simply another tool by which he does just that. As of this moment, Satan stands to reap a billion souls... unless people like your friend in Morocco stand in the gap and preach to them the gospel.
Dig the wax out of your blog-ears, Dan. My beef is with Islam, not Muslims who desire peace.
"Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!"
John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
What peace can there possibly be with the Nation of Islam?
Amos 3:3 "3Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Will Islam set aside Jihad? When it does, and does so honestly, then we may have peace.
I'm saying that YOU - a WASP from the Southern US - do NOT speak for Islam. Just because Eric Ashley, in his wisdom, claims that Islam is NOT a religion of peace, does not make it so. Be fair. You do not - can not - speak for Islam. It is wrong for you to suggest that you are the final arbiter on what Muslims do and don't believe.
It is much more reasonable to allow that decision to be worked out amongst Muslims. And it IS an ongoing debate in Islam. Perhaps you are ignorantly unaware of it, but again, just because you are unaware of Muslim peacemakers does not mean that they do not exist.
You beef is with violent Muslims. Not all Muslims who desire peace.
You may still have differences of opinion and wish that peaceful Muslims would become Christian (especially your sort of Christian), but you have no beef with them and you can not tell them that they do not desire peace. That's all I'm saying. They can speak for Islam much more authoritatively than you can.
It is of particular interest and importance at this time in which we live to increase awareness of those in the tradition of Islam who represent the true inner teachings and the heart of the religion in its most complete way.
intlpeace.org
The Muslim Peace Fellowship (Ansar as-Salam) is a gathering of peace and justice-oriented Muslims of all backgrounds who are dedicated to making the beauty of Islam evident in the world.
Muslim Peace Fellowship
Muslim Peacemaker Teams
Link to literally hundreds of Islamic Peace essays and books written, it appears, by hundreds of Muslims who believe Islam IS a religion of peace, regardless of what one white evangelical in Alabama might think.
Another Muslim voice disagreeing with Eric. This fella points out that your meaning of jihad (holy war) is not the best meaning of jihad.
And you know, Eric, that I could go on and on listing links to Muslim Peacemakers - those who reject out of hand the notion that Islam is by nature violent.
Are there those Muslims who believe that the Qu'ran teaches violence as a solution? Absolutely. Just as there are Christians who believe the same about the Bible.
But just as we don't allow those violent Christians to speak for all of Christianity, neither do the violent Muslims speak for all of the house of Islam.
That's my only point. Not that Islam is equal somehow to Christianity and certainly not that it's preferable. Just that neither the violent Muslims nor Eric speak for all of Islam.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Muslim Peacemakers because you have not met them?
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
EL made the point that Christians aren't bound to the commandments of the Old Testament. I think he was on shaky theological ground there. The passage above makes it pretty clear that Jesus himself thought Christians were still bound by the OT commandments.
That brings us right back to the point of this post: Christianity's portrayal of Women. Christianity went through the reformation and abandoned many scriptures in the Bible, but if you look you will find that Christianity has the same fear and hatred of women that the Islamic faith does.
1. Judges 11 tells the story of Jephthah who burns his daughter.
2. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 says to kill both rapists and the victim.
3. Exodus describes the rules governing fathers selling their daughters as slaves.
4. Exodus 20 & 21 are laws dealing with property crimes - rape, assault on women, seduction of virgins. In all these instances the women have no voice in the punishment. They are viewed as the property of their father/husband.
5. Leviticus describes women being unclean after a birth. 7 days for a boy 14 days for a girl.
6. 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy women are enjoined even from speaking in public. And doubly enjoined from having a role in the church.
If Christianity had not undergone the protestant reformation then, Christianity would still be practicing many of these same laws today. Christianity has had to ignore its own teachings in order to become more hospitable and moral towards women.
One: Jesus was speaking to Jews... not Christians. His focus at the time, for the sake of fulfilling scripture, was to give them the opportunity to accept Him as their messiah. He rode into Jerusalem, as prophesied, on a donkey (there's symbolism in this that I won't get into because it distracts from the topic... ask me another time), but he was ultimately rejected and killed. He knew this was going to happen but He still had to go through the motions...
"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." --Luke
The Scribes and Pharisees were extremely religious, and in terms of The Law, quite "righteous" in their adherence, but still they lacked that one quality that might have made them righteous in God's eye... Mercy. Unless His hearer's righteousness EXCEEDED that of the Scribes and Pharisees they would " in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Jesus told His listeners that the ENTIRE Law was encapsulated in two:
"The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
--Mark 12:29-31
The point being, if you do the first, you will never sin against God. If you do the second, you will never sin against your neighbor. That being said, It is impossible for ANY living soul to do these things without fail, without falter. But WERE it possible, every single Law commanded in the Old Testament would be fulfilled.
Two: The Law was never meant to save anyone. It was intended to show Man's need for a savior. Sacrifice... BLOOD... was the currency of forgiveness. The very mountain that Abraham set about to sacrifice Isaac was the very mountain God sacrificed Himself. When Abraham told his son, "God will provide Himself a sacrifice" he had no way of knowing that God would indeed provided HIMSELF some two-thousand years later as a sacrifice... on the very same mountain. When the angel stayed Abraham's hand, there was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns, the sacrifice God provided for Abraham. Some two-thousand years later, on the very same mount, Jesus, His head caught in the thicket of a crown of thorns, was provided for all mankind... the fulfillment of the Old Testament Law. If anything, the Old Testament Law REQUIRES sacrifice, both personal and spiritual. Only sacrifice pays that sin debt, and ONLY if the sacrifice comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ. There is no other way.
The culture being what it was, slavery was quite common. The Law provided for the slave in a way that slavery in America did not. Slaves were paid wages. They were not to be mistreated. When Jubilee came they were freed. For reasons God Himself understands, He chose not to ban slavery. But here would be an interesting research project: The Early Church and Slavery: The First Century Christian's Balance Between Slave Ownership And The Command To ' Love One's Neighbor As One's Self.' I confess I have no idea what such a study would reveal; but reading Paul's letter to Philemon, I suspect Onesimus received far better treatment than a recaptured American slave, circa 1830.
The cleanliness laws, as well, were 'for the time' when good hygiene was pretty much a 'hit and miss' proposition for 99.9% of human history. Except, that is, for Jews who, thanks to the commands of a loving God, survived the plagues of Europe-- only to be accused of having created the plagues in the first place!
The verses you pulled out of 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy look damning on the surface but a closer reading of the ENTIRE collections of Epistles shows something quite different:
" Women had various important functions in the early church. Some taught, some prophesied, some provided financial support, and many worked in the gospel. Various people are called apostles, but rarely is anyone, whether male or female, given any other title. We know the names of only two men who are called "elder" and one woman who was called a "deacon."
"Since titles are rarely given, it is important to look at what people did, not what titles they had, and it is significant to see that in several cases, women worked alongside men in spreading the gospel, and the same Greek words are used to describe their work as are used for male leaders." --Women in the Early Church
It is safe to say that women played a very important role in the early church, and not just as silent servants; there were women in Jesus' inner core of followers.
From Luke 10:38-42
"Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
Paul did not command a reversal of fortunes for women in the Church; there was a reason for those passages which have their contexts in the murky past. The letters in question were written to the church at Corinth, and Timotheus respectively, yet even in the midst of the verses you bring forth there are numerous other verses within the letters' body that praise and instruct women in their roles as prophets and ministers of the Gospel. It has been noted by numerous scholars that were it not for women the Church would have been a long time growing.
In conclusion, I believe you're barking up the wrong tree here. In effect, trying to make something of nothing and trying to compare that nothing to how Islam treats its women. Deborah was a judge over all Israel. Anna the prophetess [Luke 2] waiting in the temple to see the Consolation of Israel got her wish when Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to be circumcised. Mary (Lazarus and Martha's sister) and Mary Magdalene sat at Jesus' feet and received instruction. And Paul made frequent mention and praise of women who ministered in the church. Mohammad has done no such thing. By trying to muddy the waters with the weak argument that women were not even allowed to speak in public, you forget that Muslim women are NOT allowed freedoms men and women in the west take for granted every single day.
Islam is still a barbaric religion. Where women are still no better than dogs. Still abused. Still stoned for the crime of being raped. Still mutilated. Still murdered by family members for 'perceived' disgraces to her family. Whose word is not worth that of a man's in a court of law.
Thanks for your input. Really.
(that's a joke, son).
It is also helpful to know that it is OK for a Muslim to lie to a non-Muslim. All of the laws of Islam are for Muslims only and don't apply to non-Muslims. So to be a religion of peace is true for Muslims, but not those who do not accept their teachings.
Also, as indicated by Eric, Biblical passages that speak of violence are specific and one needn't be a scholar to see it. But the Quranic mandates are for every Muslim against any non-Muslim. And to interpret these verses in any other way than how they are printed is to stretch them beyond their meaning, such as how some stretch "Thou shalt not lay with a man as thou wouldst with a woman." They could not be more cut and dried.
So it doesn't matter who is trying to make peace. They do so by changing the meaning of their holy book, and I hope more of them do it as well.
Go figure.
By the way, I wonder how many collective years you two have spent studying Islam and the Qu'ran?
Or one year?
You've read the Qu'ran through multiple times and have sat at the feet of Muslim teachers? Read the Qu'ran through one time and read up extensively on various Muslim strands of thought?
Just trying to get an idea.
You are correct to assume that I don't know much about Islam. I've never read the Qu'ran through nor listened to Muslim teachers nor done much beyond reading what various teachers have to say, so yes, I am no expert on Islam, although I have actual friends who are pretty familiar with Islam.
I wouldn't presume to think that being friends with experts or a smattering of reading would make me even a novice when it comes to the topic.
I was just wondering what your and/or Marshall's credentials were. Seems a fair question to ask.