Ms Green posted the following at her place. She is less indulgent of comments, so here's an opportunity to foam at the mouth...
What do I think about her post?
I think she's right.
Obama : "Give him a Chance!"
"Give him a chance"
"Wish him well"
"Hope he succeeds"
I’ve heard the above phrases a lot since the inauguration.
The problem is that as a Christian, I can do none of these things. In fact, I’m commanded not to do these things.
Scripture is clear that we are not to condone or encourage evil or evildoers.
Scripture is my guide. Not political correctness.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: II John 1:10
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. II John 1:11
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. Proverbs 17:15
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20
They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. Proverbs 28:4
Obama’s plan to increase the number of babies slaughtered, along with his plans to further legitimize homosexuality as a normal and acceptable lifestyle, and his promotion of socialism are not things on which I can wish him well nor hope that he succeeds.
He puts terrorists' “rights” above the safety of the citizens of this country.
He puts convenience for women above the sanctity of the lives of the unborn.
He puts the demands of the immoral above the beliefs of the majority.
I pray he fails.
I pray he is unsuccessful.
I pray his agenda is stopped.
Having said all that, I also pray for his safety, as well as for the safety of his family, and I pray that God will change his heart and save his soul.
-----
And he's off to a rousing start. Rescinding the Mexico City Policy, in effect, allowing monies to be given for family planning abroad. Not content to kill children in the United States, Obama now wishes to kill children around the world.
Off to a rousing start indeed! Just kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out.
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What's that? You mean he hasn't ACTUALLY killed ANY children?? Do you mean to say that you're spreading lies and twisting truths? Say it ain't so, Eric!
But you didn't.
Faith without works is DEAD.
Tell me whose hands the blood you feign to care about is on!
If it's "murder," as you say -- It's. On. YOURS.
Deal.
If that's not killing children then I guess Bush never killed any Iraqis. I don't recall him pulling any triggers.
ER, you make no sense.
"You are part of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor."
As you enjoy the WWJD scenarios, I'd have to say that since Jesus said that hatred is tantamount to murder (Matt 5:21,22), then He would also likely say that to support, finance, enable or make legal the taking of lives through abortion is equal to actually crushing the little ones yourself. I'd further suggest that He would feel the same for those who vote for candidate because the support this practice. In other words, his actions on this issue means he's ACTUALLY killed people as have all those who voted for him because he supports the mythical "abortion rights".
I DO support candidates who are against abortion. I send them money (when I have money to send). I encourage others to support such candidates. I write, email and call politicians to encourage them to legislate against the heinous practice of abortion. That people like myself have thus far failed to change the hearts of enough people is possibly a sad statement on our powers to persuade, but it is more accurately a sorry statement on the character of our fellow Americans who refuse to see the truth of their actions. We will soldier on in support of the righteous position regarding this issue versus those of you who are lying to yourselves.
Pretend not that your hands are virtuous.
Marshall I want to give a special shout out to you with your psychic rapport with your god. Obviously your special mental connection needs to be given a larger audience than this small blog. Have you thought about going to a seminary and explaining to them that you know what their god ACTUALLY thinks?
Oh, but I did. As did Ms. Green. It's hard to get a message out when Liberal Media controls what rises to the surface of public discourse.
Dan? If you see a man drowning and do nothing to save his life? If you actually vote to deny the hiring of lifeguards for a beach that is prone to rip-currents? If you know a man is mutilating children but do nothing to stop it?
Barack Obama is all those things and more. Why more? Because he claims to have the moral high-ground as do "Christians" like yourself and ER.
It's not my fault either of you are blind to simple truth.
What do you do, ER, to support your faith? Bluster? Spout off hackneyed Liberal ripostes?
I'm dealing quite well. You and Dan denigrated Bush for as long as I've known you... Called him a liar, a war criminal, 'selected, not elected.' Now that the shoes on the other foot... you get all indignant? Especially since neither of you have the moral-courage to call a evil 'Evil'?
You both whelp and holler about Bush, and his religion, but hypocritically push your blood and offal religion on us? I can hear both of you whining now...
'Abortion is a personal choice, and they have the right to make it.' [snivel, snivel]
'What would Jesus do?'
'There's nothing wrong with Gay marriage! Where's the love EL? Where's the love? Jesus would welcome these gay brothers and sisters to join cause it's not a sin if it's a monogamous loving relationship....'
All this without a shred of honest biblical proof to support your sniveling, hackneyed [yes, I'm using it again... because it fits] and dishonest exegesis.
Barack Obama, if he gets his way, will destroy America. You can't prove that statement wrong. ESPECIALLY if you both think Jeremiah Wright is a righteous man of God. If there is anything righteous about that man it is God's doing, not his. His actions, his words, his walk, all stink of hypocrisy. And you two defend him. Clap him on the back [figuratively speaking]. The same with Lowery. You both excuse bad behavior because the behavior strokes your 'spiritual' egos.
IT IS MURDER! Don't like what I have to say? Don't like what Ms Green has to say? DEAL WITH IT.
Here's the thing. If either of you are genuinely saved (and I'm not saying you aren't), you need to begin acting like it, cause we're going to spend eternity with each other. What did Christ say?
"By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
Not seeing any love from you two. My hand of late has been steadfastly extended to both of you, despite our disagreements.
..::To No One In Particular::..
Allow me to direct you all to this blog's description, right under "Pearls and Lodestones"
"This world is one big game of "Go"-- Black against White, Light against Darkness --and we all have a choice to make: Do we war FOR the Light?
...or against it?"
For those of us who ARE Christian, it is incumbent upon me to remind you all that we are "called" by God himself, to salvation. But that's not where it's supposed to end. We are called as well to be disciples... to do the Father's will in addition to living the life of Christ. And the only way to do that is to be empowered by the Holy Spirit. It takes all three... the entire triune God-head.
What did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would do when He [not "it"] came?
"And when he [the Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
-John 16:8-11
How, pray tell, does the Holy Spirit accomplish this but through us, Christ's disciples? Why are we given armor and weapons if not to fight!?
WE weren't saved to sit back on our laurels and drink our Dickel, OR to faithfully sit on a pew. We are commanded to act! NOW!!!
But neither Dan nor ER seem to even be able to recognize wickedness, let alone stand against it. What they are very good at, however, is ripping down every poster I manage to paste to any and every available space. Do they really hate what I'm trying to do? Do they hate hearing God's word so much that they so easily tear down every message I try to stand up?
Perhaps our time would be better spent learning to appreciate each other... loving one another.
My gifts are not theirs. I am but one member of a larger body with a specific task and function to perform; one I was designed to perform. Their skills are not mine. they disagree with my function? Fine. But they should at least have love and courtesy enough to recognize this, and allow me to do what I was created to do. They have no way of knowing who I might reach, or how many.
Jude says in verses 22 and 23,
"And of some have compassion, making a difference: and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
There is more than one way to skin a cat, gentlemen.
-----
Now. I don't trust Obama-- "Like" has nothing to do with this, neither does color. My Bible says not everyone who says he's Christian really is. That we are to try, or rather "Prove" the spirits, to know whether or not they are of God. Obama's "works" do not even remotely suggest to me he is a child of God. I could be wrong, but I can't stand of a "could be." Until he proves otherwise I have to stand on "the man's apple tree is bearing kumquats."
Let's examine the facts.
*He supports abortion
*He supports partial birth abortion
*He doesn't support saving infants born alive
*He just rescinded a policy that kept American tax dollars OUT OF foreign abortion clinics
*He's going to normalize/mainstream homosexuality...
...just to name a few.
From where I sit I have to ask, what spirit-filled man of God would do such things? Billy Graham wouldn't. Is he wrong? Pope John Paul didn't, and Benedict doesn't. Are they wrong?
Obama IS dangerous. And not just for the reasons Ms. Green outlined, and I've expounded on. He is especially dangerous because the unbelieving world looks at him and accepts him as Christian despite the evils he supports. How many lives will he negatively affected? How many souls will stumble across the threshold of eternity, into eternal damnation because of Barack Obama's testimony?
If he is saved, God have mercy of him. Who ever heard of man being rewarded for sanctioning murder?
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren."
--Proverbs 6:16-19
God hates these things, but loves us nonetheless. We are all called to Salvation, but so few will ever come.
I believe we should all abandon "my faith" and turn again to God's faith... the faith HE gave us to believe... the faith HIS Holy Spirit desires to live out through us... the faith Jesus had to die for that God could give it to us, that the Holy Spirit could LIVE it through us.
There's only one of those. Only one brand. Only one flavor. Only one shape, shade, form and hue... and it knows NO denomination.
[begin sarcasm]
So tell your friends and neighbors. Are the worried about the afterlife? Do they fear for their soul? Well get on down to EL's blog and he can sooth your mind with his 100% perfect evaluation of your morality and spiritual health!!!
[end sarcasm]
Do they really hate what I'm trying to do?
I hate seeing Christians (or anyone else, for that matter) lie and distort truth in order to further their political agenda. By all means, oppose abortion. But the moment you engage in lies and slander (and it IS a lie and slander to say that "Obama now wishes to kill children around the world."), then you have lost the moral high ground. The ends do not justify the means.
And I'm a little disturbed that both you and Marshall seem to have a problem with the question: What would Jesus do? Here you mock me for "whining" WWJD?? Really?
by the way, your entire comment should have been bracketed with sarcasm tags.
But did you know He is also Hate?
A bit of a sidetrack, but you might want to reconsider this one. Yes, God IS love. That is an essential descriptor of God. BUT, God is NOT hate. That God hates oppression, harming the innocent, etc, is not because God "is" hate. God hates the harmful, the unjust. But it is because God IS Love that he hates these things which harm.
"Hate" is not an essential descriptor of God, I'm sure you'd agree with the vast pantheon of Christian thinking over the centuries on that point.
You see Dan, this is what labels you a hypocrite in our eyes. You do EXACTLY this. You lie and distort truth in order to further YOUR political agenda.
You only care about what Jesus would do when what He would do supports your political bent.
Bubba has straightened this crooked line out on several occasions, but most recently here. You choose the verses you like and disregard everything else. And the ones you like you distort into new shapes whenever necessary. Which seems quite often.
Well, sorry. That's not how the truth works. Some truths... a good many for some... are inconvenient. But you don't like inconvenience.
You and ER, chief among my adversaries, have over the years been little more than a stumbling block to anything and everything I've tried to do here and elsewhere. You can't accept that others have a belief in God and His holy word that differs from you own and yet, paradoxically, you defend the likes of Jeremiah Wright, who I know you don't entirely agree with-- you've said as much. But you support him nonetheless because you agree with his politics.
What would Jesus do? What did He say to Peter? "GET BEHIND ME SATAN!" That's right, the Catholics first pope was called "Satan" by Jesus Himself. Why? Because Peter sought to go against God's will.
But you will defend the indefensible. As ER would put it,
How very Jesusy of you.
You see Dan, this is what labels you a hypocrite in our eyes. You do EXACTLY this. You lie and distort truth in order to further YOUR political agenda.
Then, it would behoove you and be Christian of you to point out the specific place where I've done so. As in, "Dan, you said here 'ABC' but 'ABC' is a falsehood..." You have not done so, instead, you have offered yet another general slander and lie itself.
If it were a FACT that I've distorted the truth, you'd be able to provide an instance. You mention Marshall having done this, but Marshall (and again, this is all off topic, which is why I often don't respond to these falsehoods and slanders) offered some generalizations that are NOT what I have said.
IF you have an accusation, present something specific to me so that I can repent and change. IF you can't do so, stop the lies.
Just like the lie that Obama wishes to kill children. That is a demonstrable lie. A hell-bound falsehood. Shame on you, brother.
You can't accept that others have a belief in God and His holy word that differs from you own and yet, paradoxically, you defend the likes of Jeremiah Wright, who I know you don't entirely agree with-- you've said as much. But you support him nonetheless because you agree with his politics.
I don't think this to be the case, Eric. I DO accept that you have a different opinion than I do. That's fine, I have a different opinion than you do, too. I don't know that I've ever suggested it's not okay that you have a different opinion. What my main thing has been is that we can disagree without demonizing the other. And here is what I've done with both you and with Reverend Wright.
I disagree with Wright when he suggests that the US gov't created AIDS. It's a ridiculous, goofy comment. I disagree with you when you say that Obama wishes to kill children. What a ridiculous, goofy comment.
BUT, you and Wright remain my brothers in Christ. If someone were to say that Wright is a racist or that YOU belong to the KKK, I would defend both Wright and you, because it is the falsehoods, the demonizations. THAT is where I will come to Wright's OR YOUR defense. At the same time, when you or Wright either one engage in falsehoods, I will condemn that.
It seems like a consistent position to hold, I don't know what there is to disagree with in that.
...
You defend me, MAYBE, 3-5% of the time. And generally, only because what I've said falls in line with your view. But you apply a different standard to those with whom you agree politically/spritually. Those who agree with you are given greater latitude... especially Alan whose is rudeness is just under par with that of Feodor or Geoffrey.
I hear what you, say. But it doesn't bear up under honest and fair scrutiny.
And none of this addresses why you specifically feel the need to tear down every effort I make.
What are you afraid of? And don't say there's no fear in this. I won't believe you. What are you afraid will happen if someone believes the message I am given to write?
Ive stopped going to your place to criticize your ideals. Though in recent remarks at your place I have sought common ground without criticisms. But there's no reciprocation from you here.
We all have roles to play in the body of Christ. Let me serve my role unhindered. If you disagree, fine. Say so. But I will not allow comments to stack up that don't even begin to address the content of the post. [that's not necessarily the case on this post, but most recently, here]
It feels at times as if you and your buds enjoy throwing up smoke screens to obscure the issue and so curtail any meaningful debate.
How about some support for a change, "Brother"?
Eric, I'm sorry you feel this way. I in no means intend to make you feel I'm trying to tear down your efforts. But if it feels like a criticize frequently, then it is because you are making slanderous remarks, or are otherwise engaging in harmful behavior.
I did not say in this post, for instance, that you are wrong for opposing Obama's position on abortion. Instead, I criticized a blatant lie you spoke. Do you understand the difference?
If you made a post in which you said:
"Obama wants to provide moneys to fund people who choose to do abortions. I am opposed to this action. I think it is wrong because..."
I would not have criticized your opinion. You are welcome to it. I'm opposed to what I call "abortions of convenience," too.
But you oftentimes are not satisfied with merely criticizing a position. You go further and demonize a brother in Christ. You like about his position (in this case saying, "Obama wishes to kill children.")
I am alarmed about the inability in our nation to disagree without demonizing. To oppose a position without engaging in slander or twisting truths in our opposition. Again, as I noted earlier, as soon as you embrace lying to oppose a position, you have lost the moral high ground. If you are willing to lie about Obama's position, then how can I trust your thoughts on any point?
If you'd prefer that I not comment here, just say the word and I'll honor that request. But if your blog is open to comments - even from those who disagree with you - and IF you make false charges or otherwise engage in poor discussion skills, I just might criticize it.
And I do so because we ought to be better than that. We need to learn as a world and as a nation to disagree honorably. And I'd really rather see Christians leading the way.
Eric believes that, because Obama supports funding abortion here and abroad, and because he opposes any prohibition of partial-birth abortion and any protection for those children who survive attempted abortions, Obama wishes to kill children.
Dan's criticism of that comment doesn't stop at "goofy" and "ridiculous."
Instead, he repeatedly accuses Eric of lies, slander, and "hell-bound" falsehoods.
But Dan calls us to disagree honorably.
Uh-huh. Right.
I want to second your plea to abandon "my" faith for His faith. That would be progress.
Oh, it's nothing, Bent. I just read the Bible and His words. Just the same, Dan has gone with the WWJD long before I have and I don't recall such a snarky comment towards it. Way to be real, dude.
For Dan, the point remains that if one supports a crime, one is as guilty of it. So, to support the state sanctioned killing of the unborn is to take part in their deaths. To then say that someone favors killing babies is nothing close to a lie or slander, especially in light of the verses from Matthew I presented. But you'd rather insist that Obama has to actually pull the trigger. Not quite what either our laws or God's has to say on the subject.
Did you get that Bent?
It is hyperbole to elevate defense of abortion or prosecution of a war to desiring to kill children. One might choose to engage in that sort of inflammatory hyperbole to make a wild point, but generally speaking, it is offensive and a poor idea to employ such language.
Otherwise, you and I and all the world will go around accusing people of killing children and that gives us permission to hate "that monster" who'd want to do such. It's called demonization and has no place in adult conversation.
Equating abortion with war?
In the first place, abortion is ALREADY taking place... has been since way before 1973 and Roe. We think enough money is being spent on the killing of human life, Obama wants to spend more... IN OTHER COUNTRIES!
So, we go from a civil war against our own children, to a full-scale world war?
It's bad enough that we kill our own, you have even said as much. But now seek to kill the children of other countries.
In the second place, every war ever fought has killed the innocent. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. So using Iraq or Afghanistan is, as I asked at the beginning, a straw dog.
To illustrate it's tinder-dry nature, was World War Two a war worth waging? Of course it was. Hitler killed 12 million people of varying ethnic groups; gas chambers, ovens, starvation, disease... bullets and long trenches filled with bodies, dusted with lime.
Were innocents killed? How many more innocents would have died had we NOT entered the ALREADY raging war?
Suffice it to say, you cannot equate war with abortion, UNLESS you are suggesting the intent of the war is to kill children, because it is only children who are targeted in abortion. Hey! there's even an occasional innocent adult caught in in the crossfire! How tragic. Some one call the police. That doctor is guilty of a war crime.
You see? In THIS war Children are the enemy... that's who we kill. And even though we target children with such great precision-- surgical strikes --an occasional adult gets killed as well.
So if you really want to equate war and its unfortunate victims to abortion and its DELIBERATE victims...
Well, it's still a free country. Go right ahead. Just know I'll shoot every such pigeon you launch into the air.
Peace.
I know it frustrates you too.
I'll try to let you know more regularly when we do agree, how about that? And, since you know my position on so many topics, perhaps I'll just remain quiet when we disagree, since there's not much point in repeating myself.
At the risk of spoiling the little hug-fest now brewing, I'll just say this:
First, it's when you repeat the same argument that has been already shredded that it gets frustrating. If you have a new approach, bring THAT on and see if you gain ground. Unlike Geoffrey, I DO believe there's a need to persuade in these discussions and I, for one, do this open to the possibility that I'll be enlightened. Of course if it's just as goofy as the last attempt...
Secondly, Eric sparked a notion that your constant concerns about targeting civilians seems to lose any sincerity and credibility with support for abortion, since it targets the most innocent children of all. Ponder that for awhile.
That is EXACTLY the point I wished to make. Glad to see someone got it.
--Psalm 51:5
Yes everyone is conceived in sin, everyone is born into a world where sin is the inevitable reality.
But children in the womb have yet to COMMIT sin.
They surely will once outside the womb with a few years on them, but in the womb. No.
If anyone is truly innocent this side of eternity, it is the unborn and newly born. Weighing sin alone, the man on death row weighs far more than the child 5 months in or out of its mother's womb.
No contradiction at all. Just simple logic.
...and avoid looking like some adolescent chanting, "I know something that you don't!"
Or worse.
If you want to instruct us, by all means give us meat... not patronizing gruel of the likes of Mr. Bumble... "Please, sir, may I have some more?" Or are you not interested in changing the world one mind at a time? Perhaps you enjoy being what you currently are; some caricature from a Dicken's novel.
Hmmm, are you a Mr. Bumble or a Bill Sikes? Or are you a Jack Dawkins... an "artful dodger"?
Sez him. Actually it's more of the same goblety-gook he spouts here, but with less rancor. He has a hard time making his case there as well.
Interesting. Tell me, which did Jesus talk more about more: abortion and homosexuality combined, or helping the poor?
Interesting. Tell me, did Jesus imply by speaking about one issue more than another, that the other issues have no importance or should be disregarded in favor of that issue of which he spoke most? Is that where you're going with this lame, irrelevant and not very clever question?
It's an illegitimate question, Anon. It's assumes abortion and homosexuality are not genuine moral concerns. Jesus never spoke specifically, by name, to abortion and homosexuality, but neither did he speak specifically to lending people more house than they can afford. Jesus spoke to OUR need of a savior... HIM, and to reprove, correct, and instruct us all on what is expected of everyone, Jew and Gentile alike. Not how the pharisees do it but how God wants us to do it.
That necessarily includes living clean moral lives... keeping one's self morally pure. And since not one dot of the "i" or cross of a "t" will depart from the Law (according to Jesus) the Old Testament law STILL carries weight; everyone not freed from the penalty of sin according to the Law will be judged for their sin according to the Law. Grace is for the saved... not the unrighteous.
Abortion and Homosexuality are moral issues; issues of moral cleanliness. Jesus affirmed the Law to the smallest pen-stroke. Ergo the killing of innocent life and the abuse of one's body with members of the same sex are issues directly related to the Law which, I should point out, encompassed more than just 10, but an entire 613.
Obama supports abortion. Whether he is personally guilty of murder is irrelevant at this point. He, like Solomon, supports and allows evil to continue. And because of such he is complicit in their commission.