There is a general attitude toward Israel by a growing number of those who profess a relationship with Christ. An Attitude summarized by one Edward Fudge-- to single out just one example. An argument that the world is approaching the end-times prophesied by the bible because of Israel's rebirth in the land given them by God that is met with such dismissals as "conflating the modern nation-state of Israel, which may or may not persist, with the Jewish people." The idea being, just because Israel is in the land now does not mean that prophecy is being fulfilled. Israel could easily be ousted and a hundred years or so come back.
"Which may or may not persist..." This attitude is both foolish and wrong.
Says the Edward Fudge:
I do not believe that the modern political state of Israel has any special standing in God's eyes and I do not see it as the fulfillment of any particular biblical prophecy..."For someone who is supposedly schooled in all things "Bible" Mr. Fudge either deliberately ignores what the Bible says about Israel, or he is genuinely ignorant. Neither of which speak well of Mr. Fudge.
The return of Israel to the land is, arguably, the central harbinger of Christ's return, but it by no means stands alone. There are at least ten things that have happened in our generation that has not happened in any other that point to the soon return of our Lord Jesus Christ.
* The Rebirth of Israel --Matthew 24:32
* The Increase of Knowledge --Daniel 12:4
* The Birth of Nuclear Bombs --Ezekiel 14:12
* Russian Jews coming from the North Country --Jeremiah 3:27
* Jerusalem in the hand of the Jews --Zephaniah 3:16, Luke 21:24
* International Television --Revelation 11:9-10
* Deception by Secular Humanism & Cults --Matthew 24:4
* Famines, Earthquakes, Aids, etc. --Matthew 24:7
* Marriage and Materialism --Matthew 24:37-38
And this list is but a small cross section of the whole of prophecy.
Returning to the Rebirth of Israel, Edward Fudge chooses to view this 'birth' as illegitimate, as in, not birthed by God; not the incarnation foretold by Old Testament prophets.
I do not believe that the modern political state of Israel has any special standing in God's eyes and I do not see it as the fulfillment of any particular biblical prophecy -- concerning either the restoration of the people of Israel and Judah to their ancient homeland or concerning their "resurrection" by a supernatural spiritual enlightenment and conversion. The prophets foresaw a society in which every participant personally knows and obeys God."It sounds as though Mr. Fudge does not believe the modern state of Israel to be the fulfillment of prophecy because it is a secular nation... in unbelief. Yet Ezekiel prophesied that Israel would be reborn in unbelief. Israel, according to scripture, will be converted in a single day... when the Lord returns and they look upon 'He whom they have pierced...' John19:37, Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7
If the modern state of Israel is not the fulfillment of prophecy, one that surely points to immanent return of Jesus, then it would seem that a whole host of prophecies, also fulfilled, have been fulfilled in vain.
According to Jesus Christ, the rebirth of apostate, political Israel was the key sign that the return of Christ was near. The rebirth of Israel as a nation is the one sign that no previous generation has ever seen.
According to the prophets (plus two signs given by the Kabbalah--not at all authoritative on its own merit, but curious nonetheless)--
* Israel's foundation would be laid on the 24th Day of Chislev - Fulfilled on December 9, 1917
* Israel would begin a slow in-gathering and buy the land from the arabs - She have
* Israel would be reborn in apostasy, in unbelief, a political work - She was
* Israel would be reborn in 1948 (Kabbalah) - She was
* Israel would retake Jerusalem in 1967 (Kabbalah) She did
* Israel would have the National Symbol of the fig tree - She does
* Israel would return to her ancient language, Hebrew - She has
* Israel would return to her ancient money, the Shekel - She has
* Israel would become a world leader in fruit production - She has
* Israel's deserts would bloom as the rose - They have
* The rainfall would stop at Israel's borders - They have
* Israel would enlarge her boarders with every war - She has
* One Israeli solder would put 100 Arabs to flight - They have
* Jerusalem will be defended by aircraft - She has been
* High speed automobiles would crowd the streets of Jerusalem - They do
* Israel would have one of the finest fighting forces in the world - They do
* Israel would be the world's center of trouble - She is.
* Jerusalem would be the chief area of controversy in the world of nations - She is
* Any nation that attacked Israel would lose - They have
* The hand of God is over Israel to protect her until the end - It has been thus far
* Arab nations around her would declare a holy war - They have
* Israel would enter into a "covenant" with a terrorist - She did
* Israel will have a major enemy that lies to her north - Syria and Russia
* Russia and her Federation will prepare to make war while they speak peace - They are
* The Arab nations around Israel would align themselves with Russia - They have
* The Levitical Priesthood of Israel would be revived - It has been
* The Red Heifer would be found - It has been
* The Tabernacle of David will be found - Experts are close to it
* The Ark of the Covenant will be found - Experts claim Israel knows where the Ark is
* The "purple dye" for Priestly robes that is made from a special snail is being made once again. The snails, gone for centuries, has now returned
* Israel will fight five major wars on her land - One to go
* Israel will go up to the Temple Mount for Worship - It is part of the covenant being worked out right now, with the Vatican deeply involved
* Israel's next major war will be with Syria or a Syrian/Russian/Muslim coalition. She will emerge victorious, and establish full temple worship with sacrificial worship
What more do the likes of Edward Fudge need?
The hour is urgent, but the Church is not. We have become complacent, and too much emphasis is placed on self and a religion that is more for enjoyment than conviction of lifestyle.
To What are to look? The Blessed Appearance. Whose appearance? Our God and our savior Jesus Christ. People who care about their betrothed do not come to the altar bedraggled and laden with filth... they come to their betrothed clean and in their best attire. But the Church today does not.
In one regard Mr. Fudge is right on. Praying for the peace of Jerusalem should never be construed by believers or anyone else that we condone the actions of the Israeli government. We are called to be a blessing to the nation of Israel, not the Israeli government. And what better blessing is there than to be witnesses to them of their Messiah, our savior and God Jesus Christ. We must not support charities that seek to bar the message that Christ died for their sins. The Church is called to evangelize. This calling includes the evangelism of Israel.
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The rich man asked that Lazarus dip his finger in some water to quench his thirst. Clearly Jews go to hell for unbelief, just like gentiles.
If Jesus is who He says He is, then there is only one way to be spared the penalty of sin, and that is through the blood of Jesus Christ... the ULTIMATE temple sacrifice. What greater blessing to be to God's chosen people than to be a witness to the truth? Giving temporal aid is wonderful, but it doesn't address their eternal needs.
I just don't advocate giving money to charities that discourage the presentation of the gospel or gospel materials. The only sword I want to carry into Jerusalem is the word of God.
I am not come to send peace, but a sword...
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law...
God has a wonderful plan for my life, right? Tell that to the apostles. Tell that to Stephen. Tell that to the thousands of martyrs throughout the last 1,976 years. Are Jesus' parables sweet? Some are... All are... depends on your perspective. And for all His parables are incredibly sweet in context, Jesus also said...
"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you..."
And...
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."
How did some respond to the difficult sayings of Jesus?
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him...
What was Jesus' response?
"Will ye also go away?"
What should be our proper response?
"Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
What then should we do?
Jesus said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
He said a great number of things, but we can't pick and choose the things we like and discard those we don't.
But one thing He DID say,
"Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.... Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in"
We can sit on the pew and sing praises all day long, but we are not called to sit, are we? No. We are called to work. Slaves to the Lord, and the Gospel. Slaves in the field white unto harvest. Singing as we reap. Praising as we bundle. Glorifying the Lord while carry the harvest into His barns.
Perverted obfuscation?
It remains to be seen which of us is so guilty.
You are thinking wrongly. My motivation is their eternal destination. My motivation is partly Ezekiel 3:18, and a desire to hear, 'Well done thou good and faithful servant.' I have no desire to lie to the lost and tell them their lives will be magically better, that their troubles will miraculously lift from their shoulders. Not that it can't happen, but if anyone is going to follow Christ, they have to know that it will not be an easy thing to do. Far from it. Their reward as you say, is a marriage feast... and that's stating it rather simply. No marriage ends with the reception. Likewise, what awaits them in heaven is far more than a sit down meal with their future husband and King.
You have misconstrued much of my intent here. Perhaps I'm not articulating it well enough.
How's this... "Bridge Out! 100 Yards!"
All I'm saying is, "His return is imminent. Get Ready NOW before it's too late!"
-God created everything, including man
-Man rebelled against God in Eden
-Man has one Way to redeem himself in order to re-unite himself with God
We each have a limited time alotted in order to get with the program. Bringing Christ to the hungry might indeed cause some to fall away. But to try with an incomplete message might not get them there to begin with.
I think this is an accurate response. It's hard to say with all that faux high-brow speechifying.
Man does not redeem himself.
"Head knowledge" versus "heart 'knowledge'" -- I know that refrain well, Mom2. Problem is, what you mean by "head knowledge" is memorization and cant; what I mean by it is acknowledgement that none of us know very much about these things. We might agree on "heart 'knowledge'" more or less, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't.
Man must accept Christ to be redeemed. He does take an active role in his own redemption by doing so.
Speculation about how current events correlate with Biblical teaching and/or prophesy is an attempt to learn and understand. Even where a point or two may seem to be a stretch to the sophisticated, they still serve in total to be a reminder of adhering to Biblical teaching. There is benefit in striving to be on the right side of such things because the Word of God IS coming eventually and it makes sense to be ready.
box completely mysterious, on whose shut
lid in large letters but neatly is
inscribed "Immortality". And not
go too near it, however people brag
of the wonderful things inside
which are altogether too good to miss -
but we'll go by, together, giving it a wide
berth. Silently. Making our feet
think. holding our breath-
if we look at it we will want to touch it.
And we mustn't because (something tells me)
ever so carefully if we
begin to handle it
out jumps Jack Death
E. E. Cummings
The Gospel is designed to save the lost. One by-product of the gospel, when a lost soul accepts salvation, is the slaying of fear... Too many people walk by that box where many so-called "out of the box" -ers have put the Gospel. "Don't open that, here are the Cliff Notes."
There's nothing to be fear by opening that box so 'neatly inscribed' The Gospel. There is everything to gain.
---
Anything Ezekiel says or doesn't say, some, apparently, are content (or so it seems) to not even try to find meaning. Or relevance to current events.
There is a crown laid up for those who love His appearing... and if I may be so bold... for those who look for it. The pharisees could see the signs in the sky and determine the next days weather, but they couldn't see the signs of the times. How sad. How sad that too many today are equally blind.
I'm looking for His return. I desire His return. I hope this is the year He returns. In the meantime there's still wheat to be gathered into the barn.
There's no hatred or fear being propagated here. But there's a lot of misunderstand out there.
AHHhhhh... And yet ER insists he knows far more than we, neh?
He's asking you.
What do you say to him?
And then what does he say to you back?
(Just a little advice, don't mention the arctic Jews.)
Seriously, Feodor has a point. It isn't about making sure we have our "i"'s crossed and "t"'s dotted. It's about living for others; that was the whole point of the risen Jesus' question to Peter in Acts. Rather than try and get people to rise through the air while the rest of us face the anti-Christ, getting 666 stamped on our foreheads, it's about feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned, clothing the naked. Working for justice, in other words, for those for whom the word is just a noise with no real meaning.
I would caution Mom2 to remember that Proverbs says that fear of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom, not the end and sum total of Wisdom.
Funny, Geoffrey. My favorite line of the day...
My intent is not to pick the day and hour of His coming, but rather to tell others that time is drawing short. In addition to that, I do find end-time prophecy to be incredibly fascinating.
The melodrama is amusing, btw. One note, however-- many of those you site from history past did not see so many fulfillments of prophecy as we have. Their understanding wasn't as full either. Daniel's prophecy alone was sealed until...
But Daniel and Revelation are both better understood in light of ever-increasing modern knowledge.
What were flaming chariots, anyway? Pillars of fire and smoke? Tongues and Eyes dissolving in their cavities? Ancient understanding describing Modern realities?
And GKS, "It isn't about.... It's about..." That's severely one-sided; it's not one or the other alone, it's both! You can have one without the other, but it's incomplete without the other, like Kool-Aid without sugar.
Speaking of fear...
" And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."
BOTH. I don't advocated one approach over the other, I simply reject any formula that says only one side has any merit. They are equally important, but neither one is greater than the other. They work best as a comprehensive approach.
If carrots don't appeal, perhaps the stick will. The goal, brothers, is to see them through the gates. They have to decide for themselves. You wouldn't give a parachute to a man jumping from a burning ship, and you wouldn't give a life-raft to a man jumping from an airplane. Likewise, a man unreceptive to 'peace on earth good will t'ward men' might respond to 'turn or burn!'
If you only bring a flat-head, what happens if the job requires a phillips?
Salvation is God's work, and I'm not up to the task, so sorry. We are called to share the good news, to live in love for others. I accept the whole "both/and" approach, Eric, I really do. Except, at least here, you are not doing both/and, and all that "the Bible said there would be television" business is, in a word, laughable nonsense.
Daniel was written during the Jewish repression by the Greeks in the second century BCE, and had everything to do with rallying the troops to revolt. The Revelation was written during the first major Roman attack on Christian churches throughout the Empire. It was written to comfort them, to offer them a glimpse that their lives, and deaths, would not be in vein; it was also written to insist they could do better. It had nothing to do with Yukon Ivan (I love that!) or a Russian attack on the 20th century nation-state that goes by the same name as a thousands-year-old dead kingdom, or anything else. This doesn't mean there isn't meaning for us today in either of these writings; it just means that understanding comes from understanding when, where, and why they were written in the first place.
That's all.
And you know this how? You seem certain. Seriously, how do you know the author of Revelations had any concern whatsoever for earthly things when he wrote it? I'm curious. Did he say so in Revelations? Did he say so in some other writings of which most are unaware?
See, Marshall, that's how I know. I studied this stuff out of respect for the text, the author, the original readers and hearers (this book, in all likelihood, was read aloud and shared among various groups since it is written, after all, to the "Seven Churches in Asia"). In order for it to have meaning for me, I have to have at least a minimal understanding of its original intention and meaning. This, by the way, isn't rocket science. It's not even special hidden knowledge. It's out there if you want it.
We're not going to agree on anything here. THAT much, at least, is clear.
Excellent commentaries, most especially in the Anchor Bible Series, are filled with information such as this.
Ahh, education. Book learnin'. Hmm, I see. But how can we trust that? Isn't it better to go with our gut instincts?
When I was in seminary, a student complained in class about all this book-learning stuff. Why did we have to sit around and read about sociology and systematic theology and the history of the church and doctrine and even read the sermons of John Wesley (a goldmine for anyone interested in good preaching)? After all, wasn't it enough that God had called us to be ordained ministers (except me, of course)? I responded that this attitude was fine, except one had to understand that God calls us, and then God asks us to be equipped for the task at hand. God may indeed be calling us, but then, if we aren't ready - intellectually ready included - God may just stop calling us and find someone else who is ready.
I'm not writing any of this to insult you, Eric, or anyone else. Really, I'm not. The issue is an important one, and I am only trying to make my own position clear. Part of being faithful means being faithful to all the wonders of the history of the faith, including the rich resources available for understanding this strange, sometimes confused, sometimes even contradictory history known as Christianity. Why not avail oneself of these tools, if they deepen one's faith?
Before I started seminary, I knew a woman who was in the midst of study at Drew University Divinity School. She told me that the process was akin to construction. First, the old is demolished. Then, the long (life-long) process of rebuilding, brick by brick, begins. If one loses one's original faith, or sense of faith, or the touchstones one used to hold, but does not grasp at the new one's offered, then one is a child, or at best an adolescent. I consider my faith deeper, richer, more robust, and far stronger now than before I started this process, and it deepens and strengthen every day precisely because I know there is this ocean I can swim through and fish in full of the huge variety of information on what it means to be a Christian.
It doesn't matter what went on in other religions. My question pertained to Revelations. How does anything you've said prove anything concerning the intentions of the authors of Revelations or Daniel? Other religions are false. They are irrelevant. As you've expressed yourself, it appears you are defaulting to that which Dan would call "extra-Biblical". How long after Revelations was written were these "codes" decoded for us in modern times? If they were to be "codes" that the people of the time would understand, how then did those "codes" manifest themselves at the time? Pick a handful of codes and explain how they appeared to those people to complete the prophesy if they were not prophesies of end times.
Daniel was written just before the Maccabaean revolt in Palestine. Using the Babylonian captivity as a stand-in for the Greeks, the book spoke of God's faithfulness to those being persecuted, the promise of a deliverer ("Son of Man") who would rid the Land of Gentile oppressors and violators of the Temple (Antiochus IV had a bust of himself placed in the Holy of Holies), and restore the fortunes, independence, and ritual cleanliness of the people. In other words, it was not just a call to be strong, it was, in short, a call to war.
A war, by the way, that was successful. We even commemorate it today; the holiday of Hannukah comes from this time.
The Revelation of St. John was made in similar circumstances, only the target of persecution - small Christian Churches in "Asia" (Turkey) - were being reassured that their faith was not in vain, even at the same time they were being reminded that in some ways, they have much to do. The promise of deliverance, of the hope of a final justice brought by God transferred the temporal, political salvation offered in Daniel to an eschatological hope outside time, but it was still a very real hope. Even as the seals on the vials are broken, as the beast and whore make war on the lamb, their defeat is assured. The struggle, in other words, against Roman oppression, while certainly horrible - all those martyrs in the final scene represent the hundreds killed by Roman authorities - does not end in death. Just as Jesus Christ triumphed over death on Easter, so God will triumph over the Empire of death seated in Rome, by its ultimate destruction, and the restoration of all Creation to God.
It's all there in the book, and clear enough once you cut through the layers of imagery.
?? Not to my recollection.
Restating the case doesn't answer my questions. Why does this imagery speak to earthly concerns, when Christ's imagery does not? Some say as much. You're picking and choosing when Scripture does or doesn't, it seems to me. You obviously believe in a specific interpretation. What of those with a different interpretation? Why are they not valid?
* Israel's foundation would be laid on the 24th Day of Chislev - Fulfilled on December 9, 1917
* Israel would begin a slow in-gathering and buy the land from the arabs - She have
* Israel would be reborn in apostasy, in unbelief, a political work - She was
* Israel would be reborn in 1948 (Kabbalah) - She was
* Israel would retake Jerusalem in 1967 (Kabbalah) She did
* Israel would have the National Symbol of the fig tree - She does
* Israel would return to her ancient language, Hebrew - She has
* Israel would return to her ancient money, the Shekel - She has
* Israel would become a world leader in fruit production - She has
* Israel's deserts would bloom as the rose - They have
* The rainfall would stop at Israel's borders - They have
* Israel would enlarge her boarders with every war - She has
* One Israeli solder would put 100 Arabs to flight - They have
* Jerusalem will be defended by aircraft - She has been
* High speed automobiles would crowd the streets of Jerusalem - They do
* Israel would have one of the finest fighting forces in the world - They do
* Israel would be the world's center of trouble - She is.
* Jerusalem would be the chief area of controversy in the world of nations - She is
* Any nation that attacked Israel would lose - They have
* The hand of God is over Israel to protect her until the end - It has been thus far
* Arab nations around her would declare a holy war - They have
* Israel would enter into a "covenant" with a terrorist - She did
* Israel will have a major enemy that lies to her north - Syria and Russia
* Russia and her Federation will prepare to make war while they speak peace - They are
* The Arab nations around Israel would align themselves with Russia - They have
* The Levitical Priesthood of Israel would be revived - It has been
* The Red Heifer would be found - It has been
* The Tabernacle of David will be found - Experts are close to it
* The Ark of the Covenant will be found - Experts claim Israel knows where the Ark is
* The "purple dye" for Priestly robes that is made from a special snail is being made once again. The snails, gone for centuries, has now returned
* Israel will fight five major wars on her land - One to go
* Israel will go up to the Temple Mount for Worship - It is part of the covenant being worked out right now, with the Vatican deeply involved
* Israel's next major war will be with Syria or a Syrian/Russian/Muslim coalition. She will emerge victorious, and establish full temple worship with sacrificial worship
What more do the likes of Edward Fudge need?"
Actually, Dr. Fudge needs the same thing I need from you -- solid Biblical documentation, based in good Biblical hermeneutics, which demonstrates each of the items you list.
Blessings to you in Him in whom we are complete.
However, I love Jesus and I desire above all things to be like him in heart, character, and mission.
My sense of urgency for telling people about Christ has no grounding in the specific or general timing of Christ's return, be it soon or not. When I'm connected to the Father, and my heart aligned with His (God help me), I find that my love compells me to want desperately the best possible life for everyone I meet.
This causes a peaceful intensity in my spirit, actions, and demeanor towards others. A patient urgency, if you will.
Oddly enough, my friends report feeling both compassion and fear when exposed to my presence on these rare and good days. I don't seem to need to utilize tools, "Biblical" or otherwise, to incite either feeling. I just love (God help me) them.
Occassionally, my love for someone demands that I lay down my life and feed them, or visit them in prison, or fight for them against a bully of some sort...usually systemic or political, but sometimes personal. On other occassions, my love for someone demands that I lay down my life and walk with them through some intellectual or doctrinal roadblocks that "just don't make sense" to them, and it is keeping them from knowing and living the Life.
I do both as I am able, and enabled, by God (God help me).
I see Christ in all of you and see value in your dialogue. But some of the special mentally retarded friends of mine will never agree with Ed Fudge or Eric or Feodor. Nor will they ever disagree. To do either is not even a category that they will ever have in life. But they are some of my best teachers in following Christ and his greatest commandment, the one upon which all others depend and serve. What James called the Royal Law.
In every way that Eric's fascination with end times prophecy transforms his heart and the heart of others into the image of Christ, I give praise to God. May it increase and bear much fruit!
Where it is mere fascination with end times prophecy, fruitless in developing the Christ-like heart of love in him or in others, and regardless of whether it is or is not accurate, may it die.
And may this lively dialogue bring about both.