An interview between Day of Discovery's Jimmy DeYoung and Dr. Renald Showers, author and Bible teacher for The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry...



DeYoung: What do you consider, Rennie, as the critical issues of the church today

Showers: Well I’m convinced, Jimmy, the critical issues today are these: What is to be the nature, purpose, and function of the church? And secondly, perhaps even more important, what should be the source of authority for determining the nature, purpose and function of the church?


DeYoung: Now you know, when most people think about the source of authority, at least I do, for the church, I think that the Lord Jesus Christ has to be the authority, and his word, but don’t we have some churches out there that have allowed the market driven philosophy to become their source of authority?

Showers: Well, it certainly appears to be that way, Jimmy. And the concept is, approach unsaved people and ask them ‘why don’t you come to the church-- or any church?’ And ‘what would the Church have to be like, you know, to be relevant to your way of thinking—or relevancy?’ And that as a result of, collecting the different ideas of unsaved people, then the Church decides, well, ‘then we’re going to conform the way our church functions, and everything, to try to make it relevant to these unsaved people according to their concept of relevancy. And the danger of that is, you’re thereby permitting unsaved people, that in the bible are described as the ‘children of Satan,’ the spiritual children of Satan, to really play a key role in determining the whole nature, purpose, and function of the church, which is contrary to what God intended.


DeYoung: Well, what about the opinions of the people in the pews? I mean, we’re talking about possibly getting lost people to come into the church, but should the people in the pew have the real opportunity to make decisions as to how the church should be operated—what the ministries of the church should be?

Showers: Well, the people in the church can certainly express their opinions but, biblically, they can’t be the ultimate authority because, let’s face it, you know, in any church, if they’ve been presenting the gospel to unsaved people-- people getting saved --they’re gonna have people at all different spiritual levels in the church. And because they have different spiritual levels, they’re going to have different ideas of what they would like the church to be. And in all likelihood-- I think I’d be safe in saying to you --an overwhelming number of people in churches have never taken the time to sit down and search through the New Testament to see ‘what does the bible say is to be the nature, purpose, and function of the church?’ And so as a result, if you’re going to depend upon the people determining that, again, the Church can go in a wrong direction that God didn’t want it to go.


DeYoung: Now, I have to just bring this to your thought patterns-- as we are discussing this particular issue --for you to respond: is not this, basically, the way that the majority of Christianity-- the churches --are moving today?

Showers: Well, it seems to be that way, and particularly along the lines of the market-driven philosophy, and everything. And one of the problems that’s developing, it’s a reflection of the culture they’re in right now that many call a post-modern culture which says that there’s no such thing as objective truth, and by ‘objective truth’ they mean ‘truth that is truth in and of itself whether people recognize it as being truth, or accept it as truth.’ And, you know, the Bible makes it very clear that God truly exists, and God is the ultimate source of truth, and that He has revealed truth in declarative statements to Apostles and Prophets and enabled them to record that truth accurately in the scriptures, but there are many people that say, ‘today, you know, there’s no such thing as objective truth, and it’s up to each individual to decide what’s truth for him. And therefore…’ God didn’t intend the Church to be that.

When you go to one of Timothy’s letters he said, the Church is to be the pillar and ground of the truth. And there are at least a couple of concepts in there. A pillar kind of has a double function; one is to support something that’s on top of it, and that’s the idea that God intended the church to be the supporter of the truth that He’s revealed to man in the form of propositional statements. But also, if a pillar is holding something up high, that’s going to be obvious to people, and so the idea is the Church is to be presenting the truth of God’s word to the world in such a way that the world can’t miss it-- that’s going to be very out and open to them.

But then the church is to be the ground of the truth, and the word translated ‘ground’ is ‘foundation.’ And the purpose of a foundation is to keep a building from shifting… from shifting from the place where it was originally placed. And here the concept is that God holds the church responsible to prevent His truth that He’s revealed to mankind from shifting away from the way that God revealed it to mankind, and perverting it or watering it down, or that type of thing. And it seems to me some of the trends like the Emerging Church movement and all the rest, which are saying, ‘Doctrine’s not important’--which the word ‘Doctrine’ simply means ‘Teaching’… ‘Presenting the truth that God’s revealed.’ They’re saying that’s not important; it’s more important that people feel good about themselves, and that it’s up to them to decide what is good for them; what is truth for them, and that sort of thing. And if a church is going to go that way, it is allowing God’s truth to be shifted away from what God intended it to be, and the way He revealed it.


DeYoung: And that is one of the indicators of what would happen in the end times, is it not? That is what must be watched as we look at this whole situation

Showers: You’re right, Jimmy. Very, very true.


DeYoung: Well, respond to this, Rennie: They come back and say, ‘we’re endeavoring to try to reach lost people. We want these seekers to come in to the church.’ What’s wrong with that thought?

Showers: Well, number one… you know, the word ‘church,’ the word that’s literally translated ‘church’ in the New Testament means ‘called out.’ Which says that God has called out the Church. He has called saved people out of the world, for them to be part of an organization-- you want to call it ‘Organism’ --that is different, or distinct from the world. On top of that, when you look at the Great Commission Christ gave, He said, ‘Go into the world, and preach the Gospel to every creature…” The idea is that, the major part of evangelism, of reaching the unsaved with the Gospel, is to be done outside the church. Now, I’m not saying you should never preach the Gospel inside the Church, but the major thrust of evangelism is to be outside the church where the unsaved are. If you want to catch fish, you gotta go where the fish are. And that’s what Jesus was saying, that, you’re to go out into the world where the unsaved are to preach the Gospel to them.

Now a lot of people say that, ‘but we’ve gotta make the Church relevant, you know, to the unsaved, according to their concept of relevancy.' God never intended the Church to be relevant to the unsaved. And it’s the Church’s responsibility to present God’s truth to the unsaved, and it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to make that truth relevant to the unsaved in such a way that the unsaved will understand it, and that the unsaved will respond to it and accept it as being ‘the Truth’ for them.


DeYoung: You know, I was just thinking as you were telling us about what the Great Commission basically is: Go into the world and evangelize, and then bring them into the church to teach them, and bring them up in the things of the Lord. But I was thinking about Acts chapter two when the church began. The very first days of the Church they went daily into the marketplace, and house-to-house. They weren’t bringing people into a gathering. They were going to the market place and house-to-house, and daily would preach and teach Jesus Christ-- what a different concept than what we see normally in the Church today.

One final thought-- and I want to get back with you, if you’ll allow us to do it when the second half of this article comes out, but the nature of the Church is basically for us to be made holy as we study His word and prepare for His coming. Is it not?

Showers: That’s right, and the word ‘Holy’ literally means ‘divide.’ So to be holy is to be divided from other persons and things. Now, not geographically divided from them, but divided in the sense that you’re different, distinct, maybe even unique; in contrast with what’s common and ordinary. By the way, there’s an opposite for ‘Holy’ in the Bible, which is ‘Profane.’ And that means ‘what is common, what is ordinary.’ And so the implication is God intends the Church to be different or distinct in contrast with what the world presents as the common ordinary things of life for human beings. He wants the Church to offer people in the world something different from what the world offers to them. And so if we’re going to start conforming the Church to what the unsaved world wants it to be, then the Church is going to lose that distinctiveness-- that holy nature of being different, distinct, unique in contrast with what is common and ordinary. And that’s what God intended the Church to be: to be different or distinct from what is common or ordinary in the world.


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Did you catch that last part?

...if we’re going to start conforming the Church to what the unsaved world wants it to be, then the Church is going to lose that distinctiveness.

And what did Jesus say about this?

Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

--Matthew 5:13

The reason the unsaved find many churches so attractive is because those churches have 'lost their savour,' and therefore good for nothing in terms of reaching the lost for Christ.

This particular interview caught my attention because I've been seeing this very thing happening in today's Church; I've seen it on television, in various congregations, and while 'discussing' Bible doctrine here online, and I too view it as a worrisome trend.


Jimmy's other guests today included regular contributors COL Bob Maginnis, Ed Horner, and Rob Congdon, and the topics they covered were Iranian nukes, an Iranian missile strike, the Ramadan feast at the Pentagon, China selling arms to Iraq, the end of the Feast of Tabernacles, the EU's treaty talk, and the EU's split over the Balkans.

The above interview was only 12 minutes of Jimmy's weekly hour-and-a-half broadcast, each and every Saturday (Noon to 1:30 Central). It took me 3 hours of listening to the downloaded podcast to accurately transcribe the interview. I love this show and try to get into the delivery van by noon every Saturday so I can listen while bringing surprised smiles to the faces of unsuspecting people with 'bouquets of thoughtfulness and appreciation.'