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With thanks to Neil for the wonderful shot of perspective



Actually, I am OK with unrestricted access to abortions... provided that the unborn get the same 10+ years of appeals that condemned killers do!

--Capital Punishment-Back in the News
at Eternity Matters


And I'll add to that here with a little perspective of my own....

Only half the patients who enter an abortion clinic come out alive.


It takes a special brand of depravity to argue against Capital Punishment while defending Abortion. And that is what is at the core of America's current shameful state of affairs... depravity.

That and Liberalism.


32 Comments:

  1. Eric said...
    Couldn't resist the parting shot. And truthfully, I saw no reason why I should.
    Anonymous said...
    You can't see any difference between a full grown adult and a blastocyst? Cows have more awareness and cogitation than an embryo, yet I don't see you condemning butcher-shops? I don't see you condemning war in general, or poverty or malnutrition, which kill millions of children around the globe each year.

    The day-after pill and first trimester abortions are no more murder than eating a hamburger is murder.
    Eric said...
    Poor rhetoric on your part. Butcher shops aren't at issue. Neither is war, poverty, or malnutrition. Are you able to debate an issue without resorting to deceitful arguments?
    Eric said...
    What makes your 'Blastocyst' argument invalid is its stage.... 5 days. Women don't even know they're pregnant til what? 1 month to six weeks? Besides which, it is not 'Blastocysts' which get aborted. They are fetuses, and recognizably human at eight weeks.
    Eric said...
    At eight weeks:

    All major structures, including hands, feet, head, brain, and other organs are present, but they continue to grow.
    Eric said...
    How callous and depraved the mind that sees no evil in killing an obvious human child. And to ask why butcher shops are not condemned? We eat the animals that make it to the butcher shop, but we do NOT eat the fetuses we abort, so we obviously draw the line SOMEWHERE.
    mom2 said...
    I don't know bent, but I would bet he has no children. That would cure him of his attitude. If it didn't, I think we would need to check and see if he is fully human. As old as I am, I remember the awesomeness I felt after the delivery of my first baby.
    Eric said...
    But you'd rather question why I don't speak out against malnutrition? Isn't that what the butcher shop is for? Protein? But imagine all the people we could feed if we DID eat the fetuses we abort! Imagine the wars that would be averted if everyone were simply well-fed? Imagine the poverty reduced if everyone had nutrition and strength enough to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

    Your argument is as ridiculous as the ones I just outlined. But this is what comes from denying the existence of 'Black and White' truths.
    Eric said...
    "...fully human"

    Let's check ALL Liberals on that one. It seems to me the entire class suffers from "Tin Man Syndrome..." The complete and utter lack of anything even remotely resembling a heart.
    Anonymous said...
    "They are fetuses, and recognizably human at eight weeks."

    Here we have a claim that can be verified. How about a series of pictures of fetal development? Or if we search a bit further - how about an extracted eight week old fetus. Notice the ruler - less than two centimeters.

    An acorn has amazing potential, but we don't mourn the loss of each one crushed under car tires. Neither should we mourn the loss of collections of cells that have the potential to be human. Something that is essentially a parasite, something that couldn't survive without its host animal is by definition not human.

    P.S. EL I've seen ads for pregnancy tests that claim to work within the first ten days of fertilization.
    Anonymous said...
    No mom2 I don't have any biological children, but I have a niece that I am almost a father to. She lived with me for almost three years and even now she stays with us almost every weekend. I love her fiercely and want her life to be full and complete. If that means in her later teen years that she makes a mistake, then I want to help her deal and recover as best as possible.

    Paige is the third of five of my sister's children. My sister is 25 years old. All her children are wonderful. But they are also a burden, not on just my sister, but my entire family, direct and extended.

    Until you have to be part of the decision of what to do with a pregnant 15 year-old rebellious girl, why don't you hold your self-righteous prattling to yourself. Until all you pro-life conservatives are willing to step up and be two-child foster homes - just shut-up.
    Anonymous said...
    About 25,000 people die every day of hunger and related diseases. People, humans, self-sufficient organisms, who would live for weeks on what we pack away every day. But that isn't a thought that moves conservative hearts, black and brown people dieing far away.

    I'll ask again, would it have been a better use of American money and troops to have forgone the war in Iraq and instead fed the world for these past five years? WWJD? Get a clue!
    Neil said...
    EL, thanks for the link!

    "As old as I am, I remember the awesomeness I felt after the delivery of my first baby."

    Mom2, my wife said the same thing with our firstborn!

    "The day-after pill and first trimester abortions are no more murder than eating a hamburger is murder."

    Bent, a couple thoughts. If your mom had taken that pill when you were a in that state, where would you be now?

    The unborn are human beings, even if they look a little different. It is a human embryo, a human fetus, a human baby, a human toddler, a human teen, etc.

    "An acorn has amazing potential . . ."

    By your analogy, babies have enormous potential but they aren't productive citizens yet. Can we kill them? Of course not. The only question is, "What is the unborn?" If it is not human, no excuse for abortion is necessary. If it is human, no excuse is acceptable (other than the life of the mother).

    "But that isn't a thought that moves conservative hearts, black and brown people dieing far away."

    Not only is that untrue, but that is irrelevant. First, you don't have to take ownership of a situation to be able to speak against the immorality of it. You can call the police on your wife-beating neighbor without having to marry her yourself.

    And conservatives do plenty. There are more pregnancy centers than abortion clinics - funded by donations and staffed with 80% or more volunteers (mostly women, by the way).

    "Until you have to be part of the decision of what to do with a pregnant 15 year-old rebellious girl, why don't you hold your self-righteous prattling to yourself. Until all you pro-life conservatives are willing to step up and be two-child foster homes - just shut-up."

    I sympathize with your dilemma, but would encourage adoption over abortion. What if the 15 yr. old had a toddler? Would killer her be an option? Of course not. Again, the question is, "What is the unborn?"

    I encourage people to go to Crisis Pregnancy Centers. Help and counseling is there.

    If there is another human life at stake it shouldn't just be your decision.
    mom2 said...
    bent, I'm sorry if I came across to you as self righteous. I love children and old people (I'm getting to be one) and all in between. God loves you and me. He gave His Son Jesus to die for our sins. Please let Him come and fill your life with His presence. I'm sorry for whatever has given you the bitterness you feel.
    Eric said...
    "About 25,000 people die every day of hunger and related diseases."

    This is not at issue. Killing the unborn is. People die everyday of hunger and disease, but they aren't hacked to death by scalpels, machetes, and such because their parents don't want them.

    You accuse me of resorting to emotional arguments rather than logical ones. I encourage you therefore to do the same here-- you are comparing apples with oranges; muddying the water with unrelated issues.

    WWJD? He'd mourn the murders of 50 million or so unborn children, and speak out against it. What do you think He'll do to those who engage in the practice as a profession when they stand before Him to be judged?
    Marshal Art said...
    Really. There was a time in our country when there were hired guns (if the common western movie is to be believed). Even when they were wanted to do the dirty work, they were shunned and looked down upon. But at least the victims had something akin to a chance. Today's hired guns use a scalpel and a vacuum. They get paid more and their victims are totally innocent and helpless. I hold them in no regard.

    I have to admit, though. It's incredibly impressive, in a pathetic kind of way, the arguments used to defend the act of abortion. Such creativity. All for naught, however. Ya know, the homosexual activists like to compare themselves to the plight of blacks and women. A closer match is the unborn, for like blacks and women, they are considered non-persons. And why? Because of size and age. Blacks dissed for color, women dissed for gender, unborn for size and age. None of these can change what they are for something will always remain to identify them---DNA, chromosomes. Awareness means nothing, potential means nothing. The unborn, from fertilization, is a human being because that is what he/she is. Period. End of story. You go save the cows, Bent. What a humanitarian.
    Neil said...
    Marshall, good points about blacks and abortion. A few things to consider:

    Blacks are disproportionately impacted by abortion.

    Arguments used to justify abortion are similar to those used to justify slavery: “It is acceptable, because they aren’t fully human.”

    “If you don’t want one, don’t have one. Don’t impose your moral values on me.”

    “They are better off this way, otherwise they may be unwanted, poor or disabled.”

    Slavery and abortion deny the humanity and dignity of living human beings who have beating hearts and can feel pain.

    Slavery was once legal, but it was always immoral. Abortion is currently legal, but it has always been immoral. Hopefully the black community, which has traditionally been pro-life, will rise up and correct the NAACP and other leaders who now support abortion.
    Anonymous said...
    Okay you all claim that human embryos are distinguishable from other mammals. So here's a little quiz. Which of the four images below is human? They're all pictures of early mammal embryos, but which has that magic difference?

    Image 1

    Image 2

    Image 3

    Image 4

    You can look at the file names and the the websites they come from and cheat, but honestly which one deserves special legal protection? What makes a human? When is that special qualification confirmed? Memories? None of these things have that. Sense perceptions? All of these things have that? Potential? All of these embryos have that. DNA? More than 85% of our DNA is generic among all mammals. What makes a human embryo different than a chicken, or cat, or dolphin?

    My personal spiritual belief is that a soul cannot attach to something without a self-aware personality. Until an animal has the ability to make choices, and live and learn with the consequences, it doesn't have a soul or humanity.

    It has only been since the 1700's that abortion has been seen as a christian sin. Were all those christians in the first millenium bound for hell?

    ---

    EL if the US had spent the money feeding the world's hungry instead of waging war in Iraq, we'd have saved almost 45-million lives. That's one of the base differences between conservatives and liberals. Conservatives would rather pay taxes to kill people than feed them. WWJD? Get a clue!
    Eric said...
    "Until an animal has the ability to make choices, and live and learn with the consequences, it doesn't have a soul or humanity."

    By this standard children upwards of 2 years have no soul or humanity? What then is the difference between killing a twelve week fetus or a 12 week infant? NONE by the standard you just outlined. Truly, this is the philosophy of great Humanitarians! And you are obviously proud to be a member of that club.
    Eric said...
    "It has only been since the 1700's that abortion has been seen as a christian sin."

    You cannot objectively prove this assertion. Stick to facts you can verify.
    Eric said...
    Abortion has always been wrong.
    Eric said...
    Always.
    Neil said...
    Hi bent,

    "Until an animal has the ability to make choices, and live and learn with the consequences, it doesn't have a soul or humanity."

    Says who? Human beings have humanity. You don't earn an essence.

    "It has only been since the 1700's that abortion has been seen as a christian sin. Were all those christians in the first millenium bound for hell?'

    I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. (And by definition, all Christians are bound for Heaven. They are sinners, but saved by the sacrifice of Jesus.)

    Here's a quote from an early church leader:

    "Athenagoras of Athens, circa 180 A.D. from A Plea For The Christians: "And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very foetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it . . ."

    Here are a few more:

    "You shall love your neighbor more than your own life. You shall not slay a child by abortion. You shall not kill that which has already been generated." (Epistle of Barnabas 19.5; second century)

    "Do not murder a child by abortion or kill a new-born infant." (The Didache 2.2; second century catechism for young Christian converts)

    "The fetus in the womb is a living being and therefore the object of God's care" (Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians, 35.6; 177 A.D.)

    "It does not matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to the birth. In both instances, the destruction is murder." (Tertullian, Apology, 9.4; second century)

    "Those who give abortifacients for the destruction of a child conceived in the womb are murderers themselves, along with those receiving the poisons." (Basil the Great, Canons, 188.2; fourth century)

    Jerome called abortion "the murder of an unborn child" (Letter to Eustochium, 22.13; fourth century). Augustine used the same phrase, warning against the terrible crime of "the murder of an unborn child" (On Marriage, 1.17.15; fourth century).

    "The early church fathers Origen, Cyprian and Chrysostom likewise condemned abortion as the killing of a child."
    Eric said...
    Thanks for the historical perspective Neil. Those quotes are greatly appreciated.
    Marshal Art said...
    Bent,

    Without looking at either the images you've presented, or going to the websites attached to cheat, I would not hazard a guess as to which is which. But then, I don't have to. Medical or forensic professionals can tell from DNA which is human. More to the point, there is little likelihood of finding any of the animal embryos developing within a human host, so your point is rather moot to say the least, and believe me, I could say a lot more about such a lame attempt.

    But to answer one of your follow up questions, "What makes a human?" The answer is simple: Two humans of the opposite sex joined together in intercourse. Those same two humans CANNOT make anything else BUT another human. It's Biology 101 and I explained the whole thing in layman's terms at my blog. It was one of my first postings. (Shameless plug--sorry Eric)
    Al-Ozarka said...
    "The day-after pill and first trimester abortions are no more murder than eating a hamburger is murder."

    Just curios, BenT....if i gave you "first trimester" and the "day-after pill"...would you give me second and third trimester?

    Again...just curious. Put your money where your mouth is.

    What's the differsnce between a first trimester baby and a second/third?

    They're all human. They're all babvies. If they are aborted...they all fit the definition of murdered.

    Why can't murder-advocating liberals admit that?
    Al-Ozarka said...
    "But they are also a burden, not on just my sister, but my entire family, direct and extended. "

    Well now...what a most revealing statement.

    So...abortion is in fact for convenience sake even in your eyes, BenT.

    Thank God for those whose faith is in the eternal King of Kings!

    God save our nation from god-denying baby-murderer advocates like BenT.
    Anonymous said...
    When I say humanity I am not strictly speaking of DNA/biological humanity. I am talking about the self-aware reasoning ability that separates man from animal. Because the animal portion of humanity is frightfully common and of little value to me.

    The four images I linked to above are all remarkably similar, and illustrate that before an embryo can begin developing uniquely species traits it has to evolve/grow through phases common to all animals.

    I don't see the ethical consequences of termination at those stages being the same as for a late-term embryo.

    When my sister became pregnant at the age of 15, a large part of her decision to have her children was from religious and family pressure. I certainly never planned to take on a father role at the age of 22, yet I have. If conservatives are going to press women to carry all pregnancies to term, then they should take some responsibilities for the resulting children! Yet almost every other day, I'm responding to some post from you pious christians about how you aren't willing to pay taxes for welfare services.
    Eric said...
    So. Let me get this straight. You want all of America, specifically 'Pious Christians,' to step up and be responsible for everyone who is, in effect, irresponsible? Hmmm. I don't see the logic in that at all... Or the fairness.
    Neil said...
    "If conservatives are going to press women to carry all pregnancies to term, then they should take some responsibilities for the resulting children!"

    If a woman wants to destory her toddler, do we have to take full responsibility for the child if we "press" her not to? Of course not. So the question is, "What is the unborn?" Regardless of your pictures, an unborn human being is just that: a human being.
    Marshal Art said...
    The "self aware reasoning ability" is only one thing that separates man from animal. Thanks to the aforementioned medical and forensic science, we know that DNA separates as well. This is far more significant that you're willing to admit. Comatose patients aren't exactly self-aware. They are still human beings. Why is that? You can pretend the similarities help your case, but they are truly meaningless. No animal embryo will ever, if left alone, develop into a human being. So similarities mean nothing whatsoever. So the ethical consequences are that no matter the size or age of the person, it's a person still. Your initial question "You can't see any difference between a full grown adult and a blastocyst?" is really kind of silly. You can't see any difference between a 2 yr old and an old man? The difference is merely age and size, with a little wisdom and a good free throw technique.

    The notion that those who stand up for righteousness need be burdened with the consequences of stupidity and irresponsibility is a very lame angle. We same conservatives insist on morally upright behavior. It would be far easier to ensure prevention of the consequences than to have to deal with them afterwards. If there is anyone who should be held responsible beyond the 15 yr old herself, it's the people around her who raised her and influence her. Don't cry to those who seek to raise up the character of society.
    Al-Ozarka said...
    BenT concedes...Abortion...murder for sake of convenience.

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