The old Covenant was a covenant of prosperity. The new covenant is a covenant of adversity whereby we are being weaned from this present world and made fit for the world to come.
--Charles Spurgeon
The Old Covenant:
a) Prior to the earthly ministry of Christ.
b) Prior to His baptism and anointing.
Characterized by Temporal Riches:
Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers: and he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee. Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.
--Deuteronomy 7:12-15
And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee. The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
--Deuteronomy 28:11-12
And the LORD turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the LORD gave Job twice as much as he had before. Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold. So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. He had also seven sons and three daughters. And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch. And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations. So Job died, being old and full of days.
--Job 42:10-17
The New Covenant:
a) After the conclusion of Christ's earthly ministry.
b) After his Resurrection.
Characterized by Heavenly Riches:
If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
--Matthew 19:21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
--Matthew 6:19-21
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
--2 Timothy 4:8
Yet, by all appearances...
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way...
--Isaiah 53:6
What say you? Does the Church today, by and large, as a whole, properly reflect the New Covenant? Feel free to offer a verse or two that speak to the differences between the Old and New Covenants.
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I see those verses as pointed at the individual. As a Christian, my ultimate devotion is to God. Nothing of this world is more important. Thus, whatever I do financially takes second place to my devotion to God. Therefor, is the question not really, "Can a good Christian be wealthy and be a good Christian?" I say absolutely.
As long as I don't replace God with the treasures I've laid up for myself, I am not in violation of the New Covenant.
Our focus is not to be gaining riches, but rather, gleaning the fields of harvest... bringing in the sheaves... winning souls to Christ. That is the labor He asks of us, for which all the riches of Heaven will one day be ours. Not in payment for our work, but because we are joint-heirs with Jesus... what is His will be ours as well. But we are to work in the meantime. Not for reward, but because we love Him, and He asked it of us. If we truly love Him, we will be in the fields working.
But half right is close enough, thanks to God's Grace.
I don’t know what the other 50% is for you, but whatever does not win souls for God wins them for the world. We can only serve one master.
Perhaps ER is smarter than you think.
Which Bible verse is it that we get the notion that it is our business to "win souls"? Can you name one where that terminology is used?
I'm sure that all believers here would agree that WE do not "win" any souls. Christians never have, although that terminology has come into vogue in the last 50-100 years.
God saves us. God "wins" souls (although, again, "winning souls" is an extrabiblical term), if anyone does.
We? We are to be faithful. We are to love one another. We are to be known by our love. We are to feed the poor, side with the oppressed, tend to the needs of the widowed and orphaned, work to change oppressive systems. These are all biblical mandates. And WHY are we to do these things? What is our motivation? To win souls?
Not according to the bible. We do these things to please God. Because they're right. Because we love the poor, oppressed, marginalized, foreigner, widowed, orphaned, ill, imprisoned.
Period.
To do these things with some ulterior motive ("maybe they'll love Jesus if I give them food - perhaps if I require that they come to church services to get food, that'd be the way it'll happen!") I believe is a notion not to be found in the pages of the Bible. Siding with the poor, feeding the hungry, etc, we do because it's the right thing to do.
Period.
Lacking ANY biblical support to do otherwise, wouldn't we all agree on this?
Do you disagree? All you have to do is point to some biblical passages that show that it is our job to "win souls." Easy enough to do, if they're there.
Thankfully, on my last day, I have trusted Jesus to be my savior. I have been saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus and been about the business of following His teachings by God's grace.
So, thankfully, I don't really rely on "luck," I don't believe in it. I believe in Grace.
Am I wrong to do so, in your considered opinion, Brother Edwin?
But you lose at something far greater.
The entire focus of the Church... the TRUE Church... is to do the will of the father. And the will of the Father is to "win souls," and teach them how to walk in Christ. This is from Jesus' own lips.
"Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
--Matthew 28:18-20
Baptism is for believers... no one else. What did Jesus mean by "teach" if not preach and win souls to the truth that they need a savior else they will die in their sins and perish in Hell?
"[Jesus] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
--Mark 16:15-16
No, Jesus did not use the term "win souls" but you're tossing out the idea of winning souls over a difference in language. The bible wasn't written in modern English, but the net result is the same: we are to win souls.
"Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
--Acts 1:8
All this came from Jesus own mouth. His heart, his desire, is that we "witness" to the world, everyone we meet, and win them to a saving knowledge of Christ.
By win, I mean simply this: We are in a battle for the souls of men. We war against Satan and his angels for the hearts and minds of men. This is our command from Jesus, made all the more our imprimatur by the very fact that this is the last thing he told us to do. Win them, then teach them how to live, doing so by example.
I have far far more support for the principle of winning souls than you do for the principle of "work[ing] to change oppressive systems".
Jesus said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"
I am simply amazed at the level of ignorance I see here concerning our duty as followers of Christ, who spoke in parables, I might add, and continually spoke of winning souls, if not in so many terms. He used terms like... "the fields are white unto harvest." Everywhere He went, people believed. Or they didn't. He didn't even want the Pharisees to die in their sin... but He knew they would.
Christians today do not have that kind of knowledge; we don't know who will and who will not accept the call of the Holy Spirit. But we are to preach the word. Be instant in season and out of season, because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Jesus said, "if any man hear my voice"! How can they hear if you won't tell them?
What are the "works" James speaks of? Is there no admonition to win the lost?
In one parable after another Jesus speaks of the harvest. He pays everyone the same wage regardless of when they began their work day... the gift of eternal life for working in the mission field.
He questioned the Pharisees as to which son did his father's will:
"A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you."
--Matthew 21:28-31
Again, from Jesus' own lips:
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."
--Revelation 3:18
Wake up, both of you. Please. By all appearances you both have believed a false gospel. For if either of you believe that our purpose in serving God-- not motivation. I never said "motivation" --is NOT to win souls... to wrest them from the grasp of the evil forces of this world, then there is something terribly wrong with your gospel... your gospel is vain... it accomplishes nothing. This is the PURPOSE for which we were called: to work in our fathers fields, and to love each other as Christ loved us.
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise."
--Proverbs 11:30
You should more wisely consider your words, and your purpose as a follower of Christ.
You'd do your Father's will.
You'd actually study the bible for yourself and not rely of teachers to do it for you. If you studied to show yourself approved unto God, there would be no reason to stand ashamed before Him.
I fear for the rewards you will lose because you have neglected your duty as a Christian; as it pertains to winning souls.
Castigate Edwin for sarcasm if you will, but I have given you answers. What will you do with them?
For the life of me, I never imagined to get criticism over this post.
Even Jesus offered proofs to the validity of His teachings. People believed BECAUSE of His works, not in spite of them. Very few believed simply because He said it was so. He backed up his message with miracles, acts of kindness, and generosity, great understanding and forgiveness. But he WORKED, and hard; served everyone a heaping bowl of proof pudding.
If you're feeding and clothing and caring for the poor, I commend you. But if that's all you're doing; neglecting any attempt to win them to Jesus, I fear the Lord will not. He just may ask why you didn't give your talent to a banker that He may at least have gotten His investment back with interest.
Seriously, you should both pick up the Bible and actually study what it has to say. SPECIFICALLY the Gospels.
You stated:
What did Jesus mean by "teach" if not preach and win souls to the truth that they need a savior else they will die in their sins and perish in Hell?
I am of the opinion that Jesus meant exactly what he said. That is, "As you are going into the world, teach people the teachings that I have taught you." And those teachings were many. Jesus taught that it is God's will that all be saved, that we are to love our enemies, our neighbors, our brothers and sisters. Jesus taught that we should stand opposed to oppression and greed and not get caught up in either ourselves.
Jesus taught that he had come to proclaim good news to the poor, the day of liberation to debtors, the day of Jubilee and God's Right Way. Jesus taught that the poor woman who gives her last penny has given a heckuva lot more than the wealthiest and most generous millionaire who gives a portion of his goods.
I could go on and on, of course, but I'm thinking you are familiar with what Jesus taught. I believe what Jesus taught.
I think one of the greatest things that Jesus taught is that we are being saved by God's grace to the freedom and joy of following in His steps.
Praytell, Eric, where in any of this have I found a "false gospel?" Is it the saved by Grace part? The believing in Jesus' teachings part? That we ought to put into practice what Jesus taught? Is it that I reject your extrabiblical belief that our "purpose" is to save souls?
I don't believe it is our purpose or our motivation (or whichever word you prefer) to "win souls" simply because God never said so - well, that and the fact that we are not able to save souls.
How would a poor feeble Eric or Dan EVER hope to win a soul? God is the savior, not Eric, no matter how cool he may be.
We are called to be faithful. To follow the teachings of Jesus. If we wish to be Christians, that is. I can find plenty of biblical support for that.
If I am following a false gospel, do me a favor and show me where I've believed anything outside Jesus' Good News. But if I'm not the one talking about belief in extrabiblical concepts - and beyond Jesus' teachings - well, then, how have I followed a false gospel?
As you go into the world, to disciple people, teaching those we connect with these things I've taught you.
Paul tells us that there are many traits that ought to describe us, but that the greatest of these is love.
Luke tells us that the chief thing that identified the early Christians was their love for each other.
But perhaps the most straightforward biblical teaching as to our duty comes from Peter, who said:
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
But nowhere do I see a command that our "duty" is to convert people. Our duty is to be faithful to Jesus' teachings. To "bear fruit," meaning to act in ways reflecting the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and self-control.
Here's John MacArthur's take on "Christian duty in a Pagan Culture" and, while I don't always agree with him, I think he's correct here.
As to your suggestion that I need to "actually study the bible for yourself and not rely on teachers to do it for you" and "Seriously, you should both pick up the Bible and actually study what it has to say. SPECIFICALLY the Gospels."
1. You almost certainly have not studied the Bible more than I have. I know we're about the same age, but I don't think you've indicated that you've read the Bible your entire life, the way I have. Don't make assumptions when you don't know of which you speak.
2. I find it interesting that I'm saying that I'm specifically striving to follow Jesus' direct teachings found directly in the pages of the Bible and you're encouraging me to embrace your extrabiblical teaching and yet I'm the one that needs to read the Gospels???
I hope you'll excuse me if you can't offer any sound biblical reason for believing otherwise if I pass on your interpretation?
The entire focus of the Church... the TRUE Church... is to do the will of the father.
So far, so good. I am in complete agreement.
And the will of the Father is to "win souls..."
And right here is where you made a leap from what the Bible actually says to your interpretation of it.
...and teach them how to walk in Christ. This is from Jesus' own lips.
And I'm back in agreement with you.
So, hopefully you can see that when you're quoting directly from the Bible, I can enthusiastically agree with you. When you start offering your interpretation, I have a responsibility to discern God's Word for myself and not rely on human teachings.
You said so earlier.
On that, we can agree, too.
"we are not able to save souls"
I never said we could. Winning is not the same as saving. The Israelites went out and fought, but the battle belonged to the Lord. THEY won because the battle was HIS. HE saves, not me. And THEN, only if the Holy Spirit has drawn the sinner.
Everything you said about how we are to live is correct. I do not find fault in it. Where I DO find fault is your naive belief that you are to make no effort to convert sinners. This is all the Apostles did in their ministries! THAT and turn babes into mature Christians! They preached the Gospel that sinners might believe and be saved from the penalty of their sins. Paul planted, others watered, but GOD GAVE THE INCREASE. How will a dying world be saved unless they hear the gospel? How can they hear unless someone is sent?
Peter, on the day of Pentecost, PREACHED, and about 3000 souls were "added unto" their number. In other words near 3000 people were saved... they became Christians.
Jesus even thanked His Father for His apostles' witness... BEFORE His crucifixion:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word..."
--John 17:20
Why did Jesus thank His Father? Because of all those that would also "believe on [Him] through their word".... Souls being won for the glory of God!
As to this:
"You almost certainly have not studied the Bible more than I have."
Irrelevant even if it's true. It's not a question of how long you had your nose in the book, it's a matter of how much you've absorbed.
These pointless, endless, arguments between you, ER, Ben, and myself have driven a lot of people away. I blame myself for that more than I do you or the others. Ms. Green is right to say I should not entertain these kinds of pointless arguments. They create strife between what unbelievers view as "brothers in Christ" when in fact it may not even be the case... its the appearance of strife that stifles whatever message I hope to get out; and not for myself, but for God. He's given me numerous gifts, and it is my responsibility to use them... WISELY... To HIS glory, not mine.
I'm not about to say nothing has sunk into your head, but I'm saying not enough has sunk in to make you an effective witness for Christ.
For if you think your only responsibility is "to act in ways reflecting the fruit of the Spirit," then you are mistaken. That IS a part of it, but Jesus said more than just "As you are going into the world, teach people the teachings that I have taught you," He was not so passive... He said "GO!" not "as you are going...." He said as well... AND I REPEAT...
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."
And Baptism is ONLY for believers... for those who have repented of their sin, and accepted Jesus as their savior. THAT is the focus of the Church, from Jesus' own lips...
"And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled."
That God's house be filled.
The whole purpose of loving one another [He said this to His Apostles, not to the crowds] is so that the unbelieving world will see something different about Christians... so different that their message then becomes appealing... so appealing that they too might believe on Jesus and be saved.
You're big on following the teachings of Christ, so I now encourage you to go out into highways, byways, hedges, and holes, and compel everyone you meet to accept Jesus as their savior, that HIS house might be full. For God's sake, Dan, invite them to the wedding! For your sake as well! You'll be sorry that you didn't. Not to the loss of your salvation, but to reward. Trust me, you do not want to stand ashamed before the judgment seat of Christ... too many will. Please don't you be among them.
However harsh I may sound right now, I will love you no matter HOW you stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Just please make sure you're going to BR there.
I am no greek scholar, but I have read that in the Greek, this is better translated, "As you are going," and for that reason, I've written it down that way here.
As you are going into the world - to your job, to the barn, to the mall - make disciples of people; teach them to observe the things that Jesus has taught us.
I wasn't ignoring the King James, I was striving to get at the deeper meaning of the Greek.
Peace.
(And, by the way, I can easily be more obtuse. I could insist that anyone who doesn't read the Bible the way I do is obtuse and questionably Christian, for instance...)
We just don't do it your way.